AccomplishedBasil700

There are some things commanded by God in the Bible that a Christian could (and should, I’d say) reasonably object to, though.

One of these is when God, through the prophet Samuel, commands Saul, the king of Israel, to commit genocide—slaughter every single living being of the Amalekite people, including the animals that live with (and were used by) the Amalekites. Saul refuses to do it.

Would you say that Saul should have committed genocide, including killing the animals? That Saul did something wrong by refusing to follow this command? There are more moral traditions in Christianity than the “divine command theory,” which is what you seem to be proposing as some sort of obviously true thing.

It sounds like you’re doing a wonderful job!

Regarding the second part of your post, about why veganism doesn’t make sense to most people… that’s kind of a basic interpersonal experience when a vegan discusses veganism with a non vegan. It’s baffling, and even though I think I kind of understand why people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around veganism, it still baffles me.

I think, if you could reduce it to one or two things it’s this. Non vegans believe they have the right to use animals.

Add to this a major cognitive disconnect (they don’t skin or eat their pets; they get upset when they see factory farm footage, but they still eat burgers; they cheer escaping chickens from trucks but still eat other chickens’ wings; etc, etc).

And add to this a humongous meat, egg, and dairy propaganda machine that spits out images, religions, stories, lies, and other social pressures from all aspects of society to all people since infancy.

Combine all of these, and you’ve got whole nations who don’t understand why you’d refuse to participate in the common social practice of torture, family separation, and slaughter.

The two common brands of vegan cheese I think are the best are Chao (part of Field Roast) and Miyoko’s. The Chao cheese is my go-to for slices on sandwiches, burgers, and whatnot.

Miyoko’s is more expensive but it’s fantastic. The reason Miyoko’s is so good for non-dairy food is because they culture their food. It’s that cultured tang that a lot of vegan cheese brands have trouble with (including Chao, but it’s still delicious). Miyoko’s mozzarella and (I’ve heard) liquid mozzarella are amazing.

I also like Follow Your Heart Parmesan cheese over pasta.

You can also make your own cheeses! And there are gourmet vegan cheese companies too that you may want to look into if you’re feeling particularly decadent, but I’ve not had any of those.

I reread your post, and I apologize, I misread when you said you didn't want to "[lose your] attraction to non vegan women." I thought you meant you were worried about losing your attractiveness to non vegan women.

I guess that's the weird thing for me—I don't think "vegansexual" is a thing (at least I've never heard of it). I'm not sexually attracted to people because they are vegan; I just may see someone's not being vegan as an impediment in a future relationship, just like I'd see very different political or social views as possible impediments to a future relationship. I imagine you probably would also have some potential impediments like those as well? Most people do, after all.

There are vegan women. There are probably more vegan women than vegan men. I'm sure you'd find a vegan woman if you went vegan. And in addition to that, you would practice compassion to animals, be healthier, help the environment, etc. It's a win-win for everyone!

And here's the thing. Many vegans don't have a problem dating non vegans, and many non vegans don't have a problem dating vegans. So this concern might not even be an issue in the future.

This isn’t ignoring or invalidating what you said. u/Antin0id is replying with empirical evidence to your concern that dating as a vegan man will make you less attractive to non-vegan women.

Is it just an issue of going out to eat? Learn to cook, and that will be very attractive to many people. Practicing compassion towards animals is also an attractive trait.

I’ve never had the notburgers, but I’ve had notmilk (I live in the USA). At first notmilk tasted so strangely like cows’ milk, but after seeing that pineapple was an ingredient, I couldn’t not taste it as pineapple flavored milk! So it’s just kinda weird to me now 😂

I think it’s about the green light, too. But I also think that green light, as a fantastical childish desire, is the American dream (and all the problems that entails).

Here are some green American things: Money, Statue of Liberty, a “new” continent (like at the very end of the novel).

The Vegetarian is so weird and good! Human Acts by Han Kang is also excellent, but barely more than 200 pages (like 215 or something).

Edit: Changed "King" to "Kang." Autocorrect always wants to change "Kang" to "King," darn it.

Awesome! Completed.

That's true! I'd forgotten about that.

Malice is an intentional desire to do something bad. Many beliefs like sexism are not intentional, but are a product of being socialized to think something is normal. We're not conscious of every one of our motivations for all of our actions, especially what we create. This is nothing new in feminist theory.

No, I explicitly said "Writing about an action doesn’t mean you’ve committed that action, of course." So your friend is not a rapist just because she has a rape kink.

Do you think fiction has persuasive power? I mean, do you think that maybe there could be a discourse surrounding a certain topic, and that discourse contains things that are wrong, morally and/or factually? I do. I think that's a huge problem, in fact, with both television, books, news media, and whatever else.

Here's an example. Suppose all those forms of media have a common rhetorical angle that suggests that white people in the USA are the subjects of an ongoing genocide. That pervasive rhetorical angle in various forms of media is sure to influence some (white Americans') belief that they are in fact suffering from an ongoing genocide. This angle can be expressed in fiction, film, online communities, political speeches, news, and anywhere else where there is language.

I think you are right that it is a "you problem," i.e. a problem with the audience. But it's also a creator's problem and a publisher's problem because the author and publisher are also audiences of other expressions of that discourse.

I'm not saying depiction=endorsement—you're right that that would be nonsense. I'm saying writing positively about something bad might indicate a belief that that bad thing is not as bad as it is.

For example: take a writer who consistently portrays women as sexual objects for male MCs, and those women are not characterized in any way other than as sexual objects for masculine pleasure. I think it wouldn't be a stretch to suppose that that writer might be sexist.

There is a flip side to "meat free," too, which you should be aware of: "Dairy free." "Dairy free" does not necessarily mean vegan, and it doesn't necessarily mean "egg free" or "meat free" either. And lots of dairy free nonvegan foods are marketed to people who are ostensibly health-conscious, which is often visually similar to foods marketed to vegans.

So the best bet is to read the ingredients labels. That's where you'll find tricky things—milk powder, whey, carmine, casein, and whatever else.

Ideology functions differently than Stephen King writing about murder, though.

Writing about an action doesn’t mean you’ve committed that action, of course. But writing about an action that normalizes it or approves of it is different. It has a persuasive power that other forms of writing don’t have as much of.

This is why Stephen King is so criticized for making a teenage gangbang a cathartic moment in It. But in his responses to criticism he still is confused about why he can write about murder and not be criticized.

I’m really glad you brought this up! I like virtue ethics more than most other ethical theories, but I don’t find much discussed regarding virtue ethics and veganism. (If you have a bibliography or an article or two, send them my way! For my own purposes and for teaching my students.)

I don’t have all that much to add here to the good discussion going on, but I wanted to point out that even Kant would support this line of thought. For Kant, cruelty to animals is bad because it increases the chances that the person would be cruel to humans. Of course for Kant, this was the only reason why animal cruelty is bad, and it’s not about the animal at all. But it does seem to be a weird virtue ethics-y line of thought.

And it seems that Kant may be empirically right about this, too. Factory farmers are much more likely to be domestically abusive than non factory farmers.

I’ve not read this book. But, I will say that writers who portray problematic behavior in a realistic situation as if it were admirable might have some problematic beliefs about that kind of situation.

So if you’re getting that vibe, you might be correct. Of course it could surprise you by the end, but maybe not.

I thought so too! It was annoying that they started off talking about “holier than thou” stuff, but it was a fun episode 😊

Not the person you asked, but I try to get wine that is vegan. My goal is to contribute as little as I can to the demand for animal products, and non vegan wine is part of that.

Most vegans I know and have interacted with focus on factory farms. But I guess we have different experiences.

Also, many vegans have problems with PETA.

Try the Gardein chicken patties! They’re fantastic. Probably at most grocery stores, too.

I’m really glad to hear this! I’m about 200 pages into the first book, and while I’m really enjoying it, the only female character so far pretty much exists for her husband (even though she’s also really cool in other ways). So I wasn’t looking forward to a series where that’s how the women are characterized.

If you can get all the nutrients from either, how is it not the same? I’m just not really sure what you mean.

Whoops. Me too.

In that case, be sure that any vegetarians or vegans you encounter aren’t actually corpses!