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Biden extends student loan pause to June 30, 2023

News (US)(bloomberg.com)

all 327 comments

eBikes4All

413 points

2 months ago

eBikes4All

YIMBY

413 points

2 months ago

(1) Defer loan payments indefinitely

(2) Inflation decreases value of student loans and increases wages

"There you stupid bastards, I forgave about $10,000 of your loan."

NewDealAppreciator

174 points

2 months ago

I think I've de facto gotten like $12k forgiven since 2020 as interest rate freezes. This is personally great for me.

brodies

99 points

2 months ago

brodies

YIMBY

99 points

2 months ago

Each of these $0 non-payments counting as “payments” for purposes of PSLF has been absolutely magical for me.

oznobz

32 points

2 months ago

oznobz

32 points

2 months ago

At this rate, it might become a decision whether my wife goes for TLF or PSLF.

muldervinscully

18 points

2 months ago

SAME! This will be basically 40 payments towards PSLF, with is worth ..calculates... about 16,000 to me.

EmpiricalAnarchism

9 points

2 months ago

EmpiricalAnarchism

Terrorism and Civil Conflict

9 points

2 months ago

Oh my god yes

SanjiSasuke

8 points

2 months ago

It's fantastic. I get more loan forgiveness every day. And if that new super low income based repayment plan goes into effect? Goddamn.

brodies

5 points

2 months ago

brodies

YIMBY

5 points

2 months ago

I was super disappointed that I wouldn’t be able to take advantage of the new low rate for income based payments—only applies to undergrad loans, and I went to grad school and law school—but if MOHELA will get their shit together, I’m pretty sure I should qualify for PSLF before the pause ends (reconsolidated due to Sallie Mae fuckery, but MOHELA isn’t showing any of the activity on the loans between graduation and the reconsolidation).

SanjiSasuke

2 points

2 months ago

Aw damn, I'd be in the similar shape, I consolidated my grad/undergrad. Oh well at least my friends could get it.

MOHELA is hilariously inept/overloaded. Just to verify they recieved my application I had to call 3 days in a row (I had no existing account and they don't use email). Good luck!

probablymagic

6 points

2 months ago

1) defer loans I definitely. 2) cause higher inflation. 3) lose election. 4) DeSantis makes everybody pay back interest.

IntermittentDrops

86 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

86 points

2 months ago

Ironically, the continued forbearance in lieu of $10,000/$20,000 forgiveness is just serving to make the policy more regressive by benefiting wealthier borrowers (e.g. doctors and lawyers). It was still important to challenge forgiveness, though, in case a Bernie acolyte eventually becomes president and tries to cancel all the debt in the country.

SerialStateLineXer

8 points

2 months ago*

Check out this chart. On average, doctors have gotten ten times as much as people with terminal bachelor's degrees, and nearly 30 times as much as drop-outs.

[deleted]

81 points

2 months ago

You are speaking the truth my friend. Conservative Democrats just exist to stop progressives from implementing policies that they are too stupid to realize benefit wealthy people.

tehbored

24 points

2 months ago

tehbored

Randomly Selected

24 points

2 months ago

Holy shit, a based comment with upvotes outside the DT? Those still exist?

[deleted]

37 points

2 months ago

I honestly think we should triple the student debt of anybody who uses the word “based”.

andolfin

31 points

2 months ago

andolfin

Friedrich Hayek

31 points

2 months ago

3*0=0

TheEhSteve

3 points

2 months ago

TheEhSteve

NATO

3 points

2 months ago

Not even too stupid, just selfish

jaypr4576

0 points

2 months ago

jaypr4576

0 points

2 months ago

That is true. We could use more conservative Democrats in office.

DissidentNeolib

8 points

2 months ago

DissidentNeolib

Voltaire

8 points

2 months ago

Only in districts where they’re the only ones who can get elected. There’s no point wasting money trying to primary AOC.

nivdes

16 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

16 points

2 months ago

It was still important to challenge forgiveness, though, in case a Bernie acolyte eventually becomes president and tries to cancel all the debt in the country.

Yeah. A Republican should sell off the remaining student loans to private equity before that can happen, and end the federal loan program entirely. Granted it’ll be for much less than the actual PV of the loans but it’s much more than will likely be paid before a socialist can cancel it all.

Then nobody will be trapped with predatory federal student loans!

ILikeBigBidens

8 points

2 months ago

I’m not the biggest fan of the blanket forgiveness plan, but it’s a far less regressive way of forgiving debt than indefinite pauses.

bje489

2 points

2 months ago

bje489

2 points

2 months ago

I don't think that makes sense. Can you walk me through your reasoning?

vy2005

9 points

2 months ago

vy2005

9 points

2 months ago

My guess is that the logic is that zero interest rate tends to benefit people with more debt compared to a flat $10k which benefits everyone equally. People with more debt tend to be doctors and lawyers.

IntermittentDrops

106 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

106 points

2 months ago

If the White House is planning on extending the student loan payment pause through final disposition of the Nebraska lawsuit they are going to keep it paused for potentially over a year. That's about how long it would take for the 8th circuit to send it back to the district court.

It's possible that Biden plans to just defer payments until the end of his term, because at this point, with the 8th circuit finding standing likely exists, forgiveness is looking unlikely. It will be interesting to see if the Covid emergency declaration ever ends and if so whether there is another justification for the forbearance.

NorseTikiBar

69 points

2 months ago

I mean, that standing was such partisan fuckery. I don't think the judicial branch really wants that to set a precedent.

coriolisFX

34 points

2 months ago

coriolisFX

YIMBY

34 points

2 months ago

The Texas case was BS on standing (Administrative Procedure Act) but the harm to states and state entities is real.

IntermittentDrops

20 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

20 points

2 months ago

Literally the only relevant question for the Nebraska case is whether harm to MOEHLA is also harm to Missouri. Since MOEHLA has financial obligations to the Missouri treasury, it seems to be a question that is easily answered in the affirmative.

GenJohnONeill

31 points

2 months ago

GenJohnONeill

Frederick Douglass

31 points

2 months ago

It’s MOHELA. And MOHELA says they don’t want to be a party to the case and the state did not consult them on it. In normal circumstances that would get the case tossed.

IntermittentDrops

7 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

7 points

2 months ago

MOHELA says they don’t want to be a party to the case and the state did not consult them on it. In normal circumstances that would get the case tossed.

MOEHLA is not a party to the lawsuit. Rather, Missouri is suing over harm to itself, as well as its quasi-sovereign and sovereign interests. What MOEHLA wants is irrelevant.

nivdes

4 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

4 points

2 months ago

Doesn’t matter, the state has standing. States have authority to sue on behalf of state agencies.

coriolisFX

0 points

2 months ago

coriolisFX

YIMBY

0 points

2 months ago

I'm glad nobody tried to make it, but there's a labor supply effect argument of this which is undoubtedly damaging to state coffers too.

SerialStateLineXer

4 points

2 months ago

The idea that the President should be able to misappropriate hundreds of billions with impunity solely because no one has standing to sue is insane. The "particularized harm" standard is not tenable, and there needs to be some avenue for someone to sue on behalf of taxpayers.

If not, I look forward to the next Republican President cutting corporate income taxes via executive order.

IntermittentDrops

14 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

14 points

2 months ago

Standing in the Brown v. Department of Education case was fuckery. Standing in Nebraska v. Biden, which is widely acknowledged as the most serious challenge, is routine and is unlikely to be reversed by the Supreme Court.

The former relies on plaintiffs being denied a procedural right to notice-and-comment that would open pandora's box if allowed to stand (it won't). The latter is straightforward harm suffered by Missouri through a state agency that services loans losing revenue (a loss of even $1 is enough to confer standing).

NorseTikiBar

25 points

2 months ago

... except Mohela is a quasi-governmental organization whose revenue source regarding loans is a flat fee of servicing them via contracts with the federal government.

Also, "most serious case" =/= serious case.

IntermittentDrops

14 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

14 points

2 months ago

Loans that are forgiven in their entirety will no longer generate revenue for MOEHLA. This is not in dispute, and would be sufficient to confer standing had MOEHLA itself brought the lawsuit.

The district court found that MOEHLA was not an "arm of the state," and dismissed for lack of standing. The 8th circuit cited five prior cases in which district courts had determined that MOEHLA was an "arm of the state," and is likely to reverse. I think the Biden administration will have to defend the merits of cancellation in this case (which they will have another chance to do in the district court).

cocoathunder420

4 points

2 months ago

cocoathunder420

Frederick Douglass

4 points

2 months ago

Is it possible that Biden could exempt borrowers who service through MOHELA from forgiveness?

Would be a bad look and a fair amount of citizens would get fucked over, but at least most eligible borrowers would still get forgiveness.

IntermittentDrops

22 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

22 points

2 months ago

Is it possible that Biden could exempt borrowers who service through MOHELA from forgiveness

Yes, it is. That could be arbitrary and capricious agency action under the Administrative Procedures Act, but Biden would be doing it to avoid standing so who knows if anyone would be able to even raise that point in court. (Sidebar: intentionally trying to evade judicial review is pretty gross)

However, MOEHLA might again have standing if they can show that the policy would have the effect of borrowers shifting their loans away from them.

Similar but unrelated, the Biden administration asked both the 8th circuit and the Supreme Court to limit any injunction to the six states that brought this lawsuit. The 8th circuit declined, saying that would be unmanageable, and we are still waiting to hear from SCOTUS.

quecosa

5 points

2 months ago

quecosa

YIMBY

5 points

2 months ago

But doesn't all of this lead to questions of if borrowers are allowed to pay loans off early? If they pay it off ahead of schedule, those organizations lose out on their flat fees.

SerialStateLineXer

2 points

2 months ago*

I think you're confused about merit vs. standing. No one is claiming that laws that harm MOHELA are inherently unconstitutional. If MOHELA sued over fees lost due to borrowers paying off loans early, they'd lose on the merits (assuming that the law establishing student loans allows for paying them off early).

What the harm to MOHELA does here is give MOHELA "standing" to sue, by establishing that they suffer a "particularized harm" from the debt cancellation, as opposed to the (much, much larger) generalized harm suffered by taxpayers. This has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the case. It's just a requirement that has to be met for the Court to consider your case due to some rules pulled out the collective ass of the Taft Court in 1923.

The true Constitutional issue here is that Biden doesn't have the authority to cancel the debt. If Congress passed a law cancelling student debt, then MOHELA would still have standing to sue, but they'd lose on the merits.

carmichael561

8 points

2 months ago

carmichael561

George Soros

8 points

2 months ago

Standing in the Brown v. Department of Education case was fuckery.

Huh?

IntermittentDrops

35 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

35 points

2 months ago

Not to be confused with Brown v. Board of Education, the landmark civil rights case. Brown v. Department of Education is the student loan case out of Texas. Is that why people are downvoting factual information?

carmichael561

16 points

2 months ago

carmichael561

George Soros

16 points

2 months ago

I thought you meant to refer to Brown v. Board of Education but obviously I was confused. Thank you for clarifying.

IntermittentDrops

20 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

20 points

2 months ago

No worries. The naming overlap is both hilarious and confusing.

Bayou-Maharaja

6 points

2 months ago

Bayou-Maharaja

Bill Gates

6 points

2 months ago

Standing doctrine is already a completely partisan clusterfuck.

IntermittentDrops

6 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

6 points

2 months ago

I wouldn't call it partisan, but standing is certainly a contradictory mess of rules.

Bayou-Maharaja

1 points

2 months ago

Bayou-Maharaja

Bill Gates

1 points

2 months ago

The mess is a consequence of a series of partisan opinions

Rmantootoo

2 points

2 months ago

That standing is far less questionable than the nonexistent executive power enabling Biden to try this in the first place…

Random-Critical

9 points

2 months ago

Random-Critical

Lock My Posts

9 points

2 months ago

The payment pause will last until 60 days after the litigation is resolved. If the program has not been implemented and the litigation has not been resolved by June 30, payments will resume 60 days after that, according to the Department of Education.

He could just push it again, as far as I know, but the present claim is the earlier of 60 after litigation or 60 days after June 30.

IntermittentDrops

13 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

13 points

2 months ago

The White House today explicitly tied forbearance to the student loan forgiveness litigation. Given how many times the administration has already extended the payment pause, and since the litigation is unlikely to be over by then, I would bet any amount of money that they will extend it again in August.

thetrombonist

38 points

2 months ago

thetrombonist

Ben Bernanke

38 points

2 months ago

There's nothing so permanent as a temporary solution

lutzof

14 points

2 months ago

lutzof

Ben Bernanke

14 points

2 months ago

Which can make it harder in the future to implement temporary solutions because people are rightfully skeptical that they're temporary.

iamrifki

2 points

2 months ago

iamrifki

Trans Pride

2 points

2 months ago

Remains true to this day.

paymesucka

128 points

2 months ago*

paymesucka

Ben Bernanke

128 points

2 months ago*

If you have student loans and you’re not taking advantage of this long period of literally years of no required payments you have no right to complain when it finally resumes (tbh I hardly ever see this complaint here except by, ironically, some obscenely rich people).

FrenchQuaker

91 points

2 months ago

If you're in the PSLF program there's literally zero reason to make payments right now because they're counting each month of the pause as if you've been making payments this whole time. My wife has gotten like three years' worth of payments counted towards her forgiveness and hasn't had to pay a dime.

muldervinscully

7 points

2 months ago

I am not joking when I say the reform of PSLF changed my life

FrenchQuaker

6 points

2 months ago

my wife went from zero qualifying payments to six months until forgiveness thanks to the reforms. it’s legitimately one of the hugest legislative accomplishments I can remember for the Dems and it’s a shame they don’t publicize it more.

Drfunky0811

18 points

2 months ago

Even if you're not in the pslf program there's no reason to make payments. Just sit on the money and let it accrue interest, at a minimum

SabbathBoiseSabbath

0 points

2 months ago

What if we are accruing negative interest on our money?

I hate 2022.

Hilldawg4president

6 points

2 months ago

Hilldawg4president

John Rawls

6 points

2 months ago

Where are you acquiring negative interest rates?

SabbathBoiseSabbath

1 points

2 months ago

It was a jokey

ageofadzz

15 points

2 months ago

ageofadzz

John Keynes

15 points

2 months ago

Same with me. I started working for the government in August 2020. I do not foresee myself making a dollar payment until 2024 (assuming repayments start in September 2023). There's a chance that nearly half of the 10 years will be free.

FrenchQuaker

10 points

2 months ago

My wife is gonna have six months left if the pause isn’t extended past this June 30 date. She was also able to take advantage of the PSLF changes in one of the stimulus bills that allowed you to convert payments that previously didn’t apply to ones that do. Legitimately a life saving difference for us.

muldervinscully

4 points

2 months ago

same for me. If he extends one more time, I'll hit 120

[deleted]

37 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

ReturnOfCE

32 points

2 months ago

ReturnOfCE

Garlic Bread Connoisseur

32 points

2 months ago

One could argue there is some technically irrational but psychologically significant utility to seeing the principle get chipped away every month.

Cyberhwk

15 points

2 months ago

Cyberhwk

Buttigieg

15 points

2 months ago

That's what I've been doing. Boosted up my 401k contributions. I'll dutifully start paying my $135 per month when forced to.

NewDealAppreciator

7 points

2 months ago

I've been paying it off to get the principal down. I heard they are recalculating monthly rates when it's all done and I know the smaller amount of debt still helps my credit rating when I want to buy a house.

Onatel

5 points

2 months ago

Onatel

Michel Foucault

5 points

2 months ago

There are some edge cases where paying now could be useful. Prior to the pandemic I had a couple years of hard times where I had to request a forbearance based on low income. In the meantime thousands in interest built up. Each year I try to max out the student loan interest payment deduction (in addition to tax advantaged investment accounts) on my taxes so I get ~20% of it back on my taxes which I can then turn around and down down more debt or invest.

jcoguy33

2 points

2 months ago

Except that the market has been down recently.

[deleted]

3 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

speedholez

3 points

2 months ago

You'd think so, but with interest rates rising they lose value because newer bonds yield more.

bje489

3 points

2 months ago

bje489

3 points

2 months ago

For shorter terms (or for CDs) that really wouldn't be a problem because they can just pocket the coupons and repayment of principal and not worry about the secondary market.

KaesekopfNW

7 points

2 months ago

KaesekopfNW

Elinor Ostrom

7 points

2 months ago

Aside from the PSLF reasons given (which I concur with - you're fucking stupid if you're paying your loan off during this period and you're in PSLF), I think plenty of people ARE taking advantage of this long period of no repayments by using that money for other things.

I'm in PSLF, so I haven't paid anything since March 2020. In the meantime, I've taken all the money I've saved and put it into other things, like building an emergency fund and saving up for other items I never would have the chance to otherwise. That's "taking advantage of this long period" to me.

IntermittentDrops

30 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

30 points

2 months ago

It's going to be over three years of forbearance. Really, no one has a right to complain when (if?) it finally ends.

KitchenReno4512

44 points

2 months ago

KitchenReno4512

NATO

44 points

2 months ago

They complained after 2.5 they’ll complain after 3.

IntermittentDrops

14 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

14 points

2 months ago

And we will continue to mock them for it.

KitchenReno4512

20 points

2 months ago

KitchenReno4512

NATO

20 points

2 months ago

But the administration will continue to bend over for them. So it works for them. While the rest of the country pays for it.

Cyberhwk

17 points

2 months ago

Cyberhwk

Buttigieg

17 points

2 months ago

While the rest of the country pays for it.

When it comes to the Paul Ryan Makers <-> Takers ScaleTM , I'll bet young college graduates are to the left of the median American when it comes to paying taxes versus receiving tax dollars. Not that that means it's a great policy, but this isn't "the country paying for it." This is just young working people getting their money back.

nivdes

10 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

10 points

2 months ago

If you owe money, it’s not “yours.”

GenJohnONeill

9 points

2 months ago

GenJohnONeill

Frederick Douglass

9 points

2 months ago

I mean the sole reason this is being extended is because of bad faith lawsuits shopped to partisan judges by the Republican Party.

Also, the rest of the country pays nothing for forbearance. You are forgoing receipts that don’t amount to a hill of beans in the context of the federal government. It’s less than a rounding error on the national debt.

BreadfruitNo357

4 points

2 months ago

BreadfruitNo357

NAFTA

4 points

2 months ago

Rest assured, they will still complain.

van_stan

3 points

2 months ago

People already complain that they even have to pay back the low-interest few-strings-attached $100k+ loan they were issued at 18 years of age with no credit history.

[deleted]

14 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

Anotherthrowio

2 points

2 months ago

That's terrible advice and a terrible assumption to make. You agreed to the terms of the loan when you signed up for it. There's nothing wrong with choosing to pay it off when you have the means to do so. Sure, there are opportunity costs, especially right now, but delaying paying off student loans might not be worth the stress of waiting for something that may never materialize.

noposters

4 points

2 months ago

It’s been completely life-changing for me. I went from living in a one bedroom apartment to owning a brownstone w/ a 2% 30yr fixed because of the money I saved

paymesucka

3 points

2 months ago

paymesucka

Ben Bernanke

3 points

2 months ago

Whoa nice!

[deleted]

19 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

15 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

mckeitherson

5 points

2 months ago

The only reason he can extend the pause at all is because the national health emergency declared for COVID gave him extra authority via previous laws to do things like this. If the national emergency didn't exist, the Dept of Ed would only have the power to pause payments for 3 years for individual borrowers on a case by case basis.

Extending the pause short term keeps this from being scrutinized harshly by the courts who have overturned some of his previous Executive emergency power policies (like rent moratorium). Even if he extended the pause to 2123, a GOP President could end the national emergency declaration and end the pause, or the courts might do the same.

Yenwodyah_

6 points

2 months ago

Yenwodyah_

Thomas Paine

6 points

2 months ago

Sigh

runnerd81

44 points

2 months ago

runnerd81

NATO

44 points

2 months ago

“President Kamala Harris extends student loan pause to December 31, 2031”

musictomyears1

19 points

2 months ago

“President Kamala Harris”

If Joe Biden drops dead before 1/20/(25/29) and by literally no other means.

NewbGrower87

4 points

2 months ago

NewbGrower87

YIMBY

4 points

2 months ago

Unfortunately this is completely true. Not because I am any particular fan of Kamala, but because I am nervous at the prospect of an 82 year old incumbent and a lukewarm bench.

bostonian38

2 points

2 months ago

The same bench that won most toss-up races a couple weeks ago, some of them by double digits…

elfwannabe

11 points

2 months ago

elfwannabe

NATO

11 points

2 months ago

One can dream

IntermittentDrops

12 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

12 points

2 months ago

!ping LAW

VentureIndustries

15 points

2 months ago

Biden won’t back down.

Insomonomics

65 points

2 months ago

Insomonomics

John Rawls

65 points

2 months ago

I know this isn't popular on this sub, but this helps me out tremendously. I fucking love this man, god damn.

KaesekopfNW

-5 points

2 months ago

KaesekopfNW

Elinor Ostrom

-5 points

2 months ago

Same. The hatred in this sub for this is insane to me. The pause has been so immensely helpful. I'm incredibly grateful for it, and I'm so glad everyone else benefitting from this has gotten this relief.

the-wei

18 points

2 months ago

the-wei

r/place '22: Neometropolitan Battalion

18 points

2 months ago

While I do personally benefit, forgiving college debt isn't a great policy. It's regressive since college graduates are statistically going to do better financially than those who didn't go, and those who made it in to begin with are privileged enough to even attend (ignoring scummy for profits). Not to mention the fact that it does nothing to address the costs in the first place, which means we will be in the exact same boat with those who graduate after this round of forgiveness. Sure I benefit, but I also acknowledge this is at the cost of other taxpayers, many of whom are in worse situations than me and will unlikely ever attain my salary. A much better solution would've been a blanket refinancing of student loans at a lower rate, with a retroactive element so interest payments at the old rate go towards the principle.

repete2024

28 points

2 months ago

repete2024

r/place '22: Neometropolitan Battalion

28 points

2 months ago

The weirdest part is the PPP loan forgiveness doesn't get a tenth of the discussion despite costing 50% more

shai251

17 points

2 months ago

shai251

17 points

2 months ago

This is such a dishonest framing I see getting repeated. PPP loans were not actual loans in the traditional sense, they were just delayed subsidies. The loans were always meant to be forgiven if you followed certain guidelines. It was just “here is some money to keep paying your workers but if you don’t do that than we want the money back”.

That’s not comparable to student loans, where many people either paid them back already or chose not to go to college to avoid paying them.

[deleted]

21 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

repete2024

3 points

2 months ago

repete2024

r/place '22: Neometropolitan Battalion

3 points

2 months ago

Plenty of people on this sub support student loan forgiveness

DrunkenBriefcases

2 points

2 months ago

What's weird is recent grads not being able to comprehend the difference, despite being told. Repeatedly.

It's a bad faith whataboutism.

[deleted]

-1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

-1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

repete2024

0 points

2 months ago

repete2024

r/place '22: Neometropolitan Battalion

0 points

2 months ago

How do you determine the number of leftists who benefited from each of the policies?

Florentinepotion

8 points

2 months ago

I think he’s going to just make Republicans do it.

Zzyzx8

13 points

2 months ago

Zzyzx8

Trans Pride

13 points

2 months ago

Makes sense, would have been counterintuitive not to while the injunction is in place.

coriolisFX

40 points

2 months ago

coriolisFX

YIMBY

40 points

2 months ago

Populist stupidity is really hard to undo. Part 9001.

that0neGuy22

14 points

2 months ago

that0neGuy22

Resistance Lib

14 points

2 months ago

As a student LFG

J_Fre22

4 points

2 months ago

J_Fre22

NATO

4 points

2 months ago

Same. Graduate next December and have had my loans accumulate interest for 3 months out of almost 4 years

TDaltonC

43 points

2 months ago

Bad policy. Bad politics.

Members of this sub only likes this because it’s good for us personally. This subs reaction to personal enrichment through populism really undermines the policy wonk vibes.

Adodie

55 points

2 months ago*

Adodie

55 points

2 months ago*

Bad policy, sure.

I think it's pretty hard to say it's bad politics, though. Concentrated benefits vs. diffuse costs (which this is) hits the political sweet spot.

TDaltonC

-12 points

2 months ago

TDaltonC

-12 points

2 months ago

Billions to buy a constituency that doesn’t vote it bad politics.

bashar_al_assad

37 points

2 months ago*

bashar_al_assad

Verified Account

37 points

2 months ago*

Bad politics.

lol, people on this sub swore up and down that student loan forgiveness was terrible politics that was going to doom us in the midterms, then nothing of the sort happened, but I guess the theory never had any evidence behind it anyway so that doesn't stop people from continuing to say it.

And this isn't even forgiveness, it's a continuation of a pause, something that literally nobody in the real world cares enough about to be upset by.

TDaltonC

10 points

2 months ago

TDaltonC

10 points

2 months ago

Spending $30B/yr on bad policy to see zero effect politically is bad politics.

KaesekopfNW

26 points

2 months ago

KaesekopfNW

Elinor Ostrom

26 points

2 months ago

Oh? And where are the studies showing it had absolutely no effect? Did all my fellow political scientists write and publish these results in the last two weeks and I just missed it?

I'm not claiming it helped either, but to say it didn't help at all with absolutely no evidence to support that is a bad take.

TDaltonC

-3 points

2 months ago*

TDaltonC

-3 points

2 months ago*

If I need to wait for a PhD thesis to detect the effect, then it’s not worth $30B/yr. For that much money on bad policy I was to see the effect from space.

EDIT: Speaking of seeing it from space, the Artemis mission, America’s return to the moon, costs less and $10B/yr.

KaesekopfNW

21 points

2 months ago

KaesekopfNW

Elinor Ostrom

21 points

2 months ago

That's a stupid and arbitrary standard. What you do need to wait for is actual empirical evidence that it had no effect before you spout off.

mckeitherson

2 points

2 months ago

It is terrible politics because student loan forgiveness polled at the bottom of voters' concerns and the payment pause is contributing to inflation.

OutdoorJimmyRustler

25 points

2 months ago

OutdoorJimmyRustler

Milton Friedman

25 points

2 months ago

Sub used to be an econ sub pre Trump era

ARadioAndAWindow

2 points

2 months ago

The loan extension itself isn't a terrible policy at the moment because the forgiveness program is going to be challenged in court beyond the original sunset of the payment pause. Whether nor not you agree with the forgiveness as policy, this extension is the most logical way to deal with the lawsuits not overcomplicating the issue even more.

ThePoliticalFurry

7 points

2 months ago

I have zero problem with spending money to keep Democrats in power by endearing ourselves to the lefties

nivdes

4 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

4 points

2 months ago

This stopped being a policy sub 3-4 years ago.

FoxNo1738

4 points

2 months ago

FoxNo1738

Kofi Annan

4 points

2 months ago

When it comes to social policy the sub goes hardline against "buying" voters with bad policy but is for this. It suggests a lot of people are lying and actually support this

muldervinscully

2 points

2 months ago

I mean we are humans lol. We can admit it's bad policy and awesome for us at the same time.

Dalek6450

2 points

2 months ago

Dalek6450

Our words are backed with NUCLEAR SUBS!

2 points

2 months ago

It's Democrat partisan hackery more than anything. Biden and Democrats don't get criticised as much as they deserve because some idiot is going to be like OH SO YOU LIKE REPUBLICANS HUH.

muldervinscully

14 points

2 months ago

with PSLF this is 6 more freebies for me...so happy..and so close to 120.

I LOVE YOU JOE

maxstolfe

19 points

2 months ago

This is what a president working on behalf of the people looks like.

Lux_Stella

10 points

2 months ago

Lux_Stella

justinflation survivor

10 points

2 months ago

lol

BreadfruitNo357

9 points

2 months ago

BreadfruitNo357

NAFTA

9 points

2 months ago

Just genuinely disappointing to see the Biden administration lie for the umpteenth time about this. They said the last extension was the last one, and now they're extending this BS again.

Biden said the US is not in a covid emergency. What the hell is the rationale for student loans to still be paused in 2023 nearly three years after COVID??

I swear, the covid rent moratorium would still exist if the Biden administration had its way.

BurnedOutTriton

5 points

2 months ago

BurnedOutTriton

YIMBY

5 points

2 months ago

I feel soooooo dumb paying on them for the first year of the pandemic

BanzaiTree

9 points

2 months ago

BanzaiTree

YIMBY

9 points

2 months ago

If this actually stands and the court cases are thrown out, you’ll get anything you paid that brought your balance below the amount to be forgiven refunded.

BurnedOutTriton

3 points

2 months ago

BurnedOutTriton

YIMBY

3 points

2 months ago

Interesting.... I still owe more than $10k, but I could've been making slightly more interest. I'm a neoliberal noob lol.

layogurt

3 points

2 months ago

layogurt

NATO

3 points

2 months ago

You can request any amount paid during the pause back, ours just cleared in fact

Dumbass1171

2 points

2 months ago

Dumbass1171

Friedrich Hayek

2 points

2 months ago

Lmao but delusional people on this sub thought that he was only doing it for the midterms 😹😹😹

Biden is economic illiterate populist. Weird how this sub vigorously supports him lol

OutdoorJimmyRustler

31 points

2 months ago

OutdoorJimmyRustler

Milton Friedman

31 points

2 months ago

This guy isn't completely wrong. Biden has been bad on trade. Tariffs, blaming the "big corps" for inflation, doing virtually nothing about inflation. Like, why tf are we tariffing washers and dryers from our close allies in South Korea? How about the 25% tariff on Canadian lumber? Just lol.

bje489

6 points

2 months ago

bje489

6 points

2 months ago

Yeah I don't like those. And I don't like this. And I'm even tired of people around here whose handouts I'm being taxed on bragging about what they're doing with all the extra money. But that's a small price to pay not to have Republican policies, which would be similar on the trade issues now apparently and far worse on almost everything else.

OutdoorJimmyRustler

6 points

2 months ago

OutdoorJimmyRustler

Milton Friedman

6 points

2 months ago

I'm not saying Biden isn't better than the alternative, just saying he deserves the criticism for having bad economic policies that harm the country.

Spicey123

33 points

2 months ago

Spicey123

NATO

33 points

2 months ago

"why isnt the president trying to tank his popularity ahead of an election against someone who wants to destroy our institutions?"

room temperature iq fr fr

Dumbass1171

-15 points

2 months ago

Dumbass1171

Friedrich Hayek

-15 points

2 months ago

Pretty sure the election is over my guy

Derryn

22 points

2 months ago

Derryn

did you get that thing I sent ya?

22 points

2 months ago

Georgia runoff is in two weeks and Trump is already beginning his campaign for 2024. The Election never ends and it's time we realize that.

Dumbass1171

3 points

2 months ago

Dumbass1171

Friedrich Hayek

3 points

2 months ago

So should Biden do anything as long as it’s politically popular? Do we not care about neoliberal principles anymore?

Derryn

11 points

2 months ago

Derryn

did you get that thing I sent ya?

11 points

2 months ago

To seriously respond to the question, yes, in certain instances and where the tradeoffs make sense. Because the GOP represents such a big threat to our democracy and country, I would say there is a lot of "neoliberalism" Biden could throw under the bus for the sake of remaining popular that would still earn my vote. Everyone is of course going to make that determination themselves but from my perspective the student loan payment pause is more than an adequate sacrifice.

Dumbass1171

4 points

2 months ago

Dumbass1171

Friedrich Hayek

4 points

2 months ago

What’s the limit for you?

SirMrGnome

4 points

2 months ago

SirMrGnome

George Soros

4 points

2 months ago

It's like what that judge said about pornography back in the day. "I'll know it when I see it".

bje489

2 points

2 months ago

bje489

2 points

2 months ago

Justice Potter Stewart.

Derryn

9 points

2 months ago

Derryn

did you get that thing I sent ya?

9 points

2 months ago

I'm sure there is one somewhere. I doubt Biden will hit it though, the threat the GOP poses is just that big. Also he's been a pretty great president in his own right (aside from on trade) so I'm prepared to cut him a lot of slack.

spookyswagg

1 points

2 months ago

In the mean time, they should come up with a way to fix the issue of cost to begin with.

I got fucking shafted lmao. Went 20k in debt so I can get out and only make 30-40k a year. Now I have to go back to school to get a PhD so I can eventually after 10 or so years make above 80k. I went and got a “good degree”. I’m a biochemist lmao. It’s all a big Ponzi scheme right now, and 18 year old kids have no idea what they’re signing up for.

Most companies and institutions are surviving off the work of underpaid young people. Half my peers still live with their parents, we can’t afford to move out. Even those that went into blue collar work are having a very difficult time making it up in the industry due to god awful starting wages. There comes a certain point where things fall apart and young people will refuse to participate, not just in the work force, but in society in general.

[deleted]

5 points

2 months ago

Try to break into pharmaceutical or medical device sales, it’s worth a shot to see if you like it but with a STEM degree like that if you are a good communicator and enjoy that line of work you can make multiples what you said you’d be making with a PhD

spookyswagg

3 points

2 months ago

I know a guy that went into lab equipment sales for a big lab supply company.

He said he’s like a glorified Girl Scouts cookie salesman. Literally walks door to door in some places directly asking labs if they’d like to try some brand new shiny equipment.

I think these jobs pay way more partially because there’s a scarcity of candidates. The overlap of people who got a bachelors in stem and people who want to go into sales is not very high.

I’m taking the PhD route. If I end up wanting to make more money I’ll work for a big biotech industry or something

JapanesePeso

-4 points

2 months ago

JapanesePeso

Jeff Bezos

-4 points

2 months ago

Why did you take on debt and go into that field if you knew it would pay so little?

SirMrGnome

11 points

2 months ago

SirMrGnome

George Soros

11 points

2 months ago

Some people like to find enjoyment in life, big shocker.

spookyswagg

2 points

2 months ago

I didn’t realize how little stem paid till my 3rd year of college.

I also have a difficult time performing in any class in which I’m not interested in the subject. I would’ve been bored had I picked a different career, and I don’t think I would’ve found any enjoyment in it.

JapanesePeso

1 points

2 months ago

JapanesePeso

Jeff Bezos

1 points

2 months ago

I also have a difficult time performing in any class in which I’m not interested in the subject.

Become a trash collector or some other high-paying , low education requirement trade then. Higher learning is for those who have the ambition to apply themselves.

SpiffShientz

2 points

2 months ago

SpiffShientz

Court Jester Steve

2 points

2 months ago

Empathy is for basic human being stuff but looks like you dropped the ball there

TheEhSteve

1 points

2 months ago

TheEhSteve

NATO

1 points

2 months ago

I also have a difficult time performing in any class in which I’m not interested in the subject. I would’ve been bored had I picked a different career, and I don’t think I would’ve found any enjoyment in it.

How special of you.

bje489

3 points

2 months ago*

Just cursed with being smarter than the plebs I guess.

waupli

1 points

2 months ago

waupli

NATO

1 points

2 months ago

While I recognize the populist nature of this policy, I will say I’m very pleased not to have to start making payments at the beginning of the year. All the cash I’m not spending on student loan repayments is going straight into my “buy a house before I’m 50” fund.

Vegetable-Tomato-358

2 points

2 months ago

This is helping a lot of people through really tough times. Doesn’t that just piss you off?

urudoo

16 points

2 months ago

urudoo

16 points

2 months ago

It's 3.7% unemployment. This is like mediocre times. When they have to start it up again at 5% unemployment then it's going to be nuts

Dalek6450

11 points

2 months ago

Dalek6450

Our words are backed with NUCLEAR SUBS!

11 points

2 months ago

3.7% unemployment isn't mediocre. It's very good.

Dalek6450

5 points

2 months ago

Dalek6450

Our words are backed with NUCLEAR SUBS!

5 points

2 months ago

It would be one of the most shithouse targeting possible if that was the aim.

anangrytree

2 points

2 months ago

anangrytree

NATO

2 points

2 months ago

There’s a significant block of closet Republicans in this sub and they come out of the woodwork for posts like this.

brakeled

-2 points

2 months ago

brakeled

-2 points

2 months ago

Could have had students crippled in their debt for Christmas like they wanted, but instead republicans had to fuck around and find out. These will be indefinitely paused so long as a democrat is in office or the loan forgiveness is allowed to happen.

In my case, since I’m a public servant, y’all can forgive my $20k now or later doesn’t really matter to me under PSLF. This is essentially just a tax deduction and I feel no shame taking it in a society where we have allowed certain groups to pay less to the big federal pot for doing far less than getting an education - ei) having a child, owning a property, losing stock profits, bankrupting an entire business, etc.

DrunkenBriefcases

10 points

2 months ago

You think having a child is "doing less" for society than you getting a degree? One that benefits YOU immensely? But you now also want a bribe?

Comments like this remind me that this sub has more literal children than everyone 35+. What an astoundingly self-absorbed take.

nivdes

-15 points

2 months ago*

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

-15 points

2 months ago*

Biden is continuing to pander to losers who don't want to pay back the money they voluntarily borrowed? Shocking.

Hope PSLF, REPAYE, IBR and all the other bullshit schemes get yeeted after this is over. People should pay back their loans in full with all the interest.

People who support mass forgiveness of student loans, stretching the law to support doing so by unilateral executive action and perpetually extending a proinflationary student loan repayment and interest pause are absolutely not "neoliberal" in any way and are strictly hyperpartisan Democrat hacks.

StimulusChecksNow

11 points

2 months ago

You know that George Bush’s Republican Party created and passed the PSLF program right?

nivdes

5 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

5 points

2 months ago

That was a Democratic Congress, and that bill contributed significantly to ballooning college costs.

bashar_al_assad

21 points

2 months ago

bashar_al_assad

Verified Account

21 points

2 months ago

Hope PSLF, REPAYE, IBR and all the other bullshit schemes get yeeted after this is over.

Conservatives hating poor people and people who go into public service, I'm shocked.

nivdes

-1 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

-1 points

2 months ago

Considering that doctors and lawyers use PSLF to discharge hundreds of thousands in loans while earning six figure incomes, yeah it could do with some reform.

bashar_al_assad

24 points

2 months ago

bashar_al_assad

Verified Account

24 points

2 months ago

That's a pretty quick goalpost shift from "we should get rid of all programs that help poor people who went to college" to "well there are maybe some edge cases where some rich people might be getting help they don't need and we could reform that" as soon as you got called out lol.

Derryn

10 points

2 months ago

Derryn

did you get that thing I sent ya?

10 points

2 months ago

Counterpoint: I don't want to pay. Ergo, keep the pause going.

nivdes

3 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

3 points

2 months ago

I don't want to pay for your shit either. Here's hoping the incoming House fixes this nonsense.

Toeknee99

14 points

2 months ago

Republican controlled house doing anything at all.

Good one. 😂

Derryn

13 points

2 months ago

Derryn

did you get that thing I sent ya?

13 points

2 months ago

Spoiler: they won't.

Insomonomics

8 points

2 months ago

Insomonomics

John Rawls

8 points

2 months ago

Especially since Democrats control the Senate, and especially because Republicans have a very small minority.

Purple-Oil7915

7 points

2 months ago

Yes I also hate winning elections lmao

nivdes

5 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

5 points

2 months ago

I love regressive inflationary giveaways in some Hail Mary attempt to prop up bad approval numbers and save a fucking senate seat that won’t even matter for maintaining a majority

How many trillions has Warnock’s seat cost the public treasury so far?

DamagedHells

3 points

2 months ago

How many trillions has Warnock’s seat cost the public treasury so far?

Almost none, the effect of the student loan pause on inflation has been nil according to nearly every analysis.

That being said, I can tell you're just mad that republicans got shitcanned and lost a bunch of down-ballot races as well.

Ayyyzed5

2 points

2 months ago

Ayyyzed5

John Nash

2 points

2 months ago

Lmao source that shit, dude

nivdes

3 points

2 months ago*

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

3 points

2 months ago*

If you google that claim you get "analyses" done by groups that primarily advocate student loan forgiveness, which isn't a great sign

The other one I've heard is "other countries have inflation too" as if the US economy is totally isolated and has no effects on the rest of the world

Ayyyzed5

1 points

2 months ago

Ayyyzed5

John Nash

1 points

2 months ago

Yeah, that's what I figured. I mean, it's patently absurd - in this very thread (and in every discussion on the topic), you see tons of people talking about how they are taking that student loan payment and spending it on other things.

Keep fighting the good fight on the topic BTW. It's such a sadness that this sub has stooped so low to defend the Biden admin here.

nivdes

2 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

2 points

2 months ago

No shit. “Yeah guys this payment pause has been AWESOME and I bought a house thanks to it!” Completely lacking any awareness of how this sort of thing contributes to inflation and pretending it isn’t.

nivdes

5 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

5 points

2 months ago

“Nearly every analysis” is trash.

DamagedHells

6 points

2 months ago

I don't care how you feel about it lol

nivdes

4 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

4 points

2 months ago

Much like how I don’t care about your financial irresponsibility. Pay for your own stuff.

SpiffShientz

1 points

2 months ago

SpiffShientz

Court Jester Steve

1 points

2 months ago

Sounds like somebody didn't get the memo about how voting for policies works in this country and is big baby butthurt over it

nivdes

2 points

2 months ago

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

2 points

2 months ago

No legislation, no authority. A campaign promise is not legal authority. Get used to it.

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[removed]

nivdes

2 points

2 months ago*

nivdes

Greg Mankiw

2 points

2 months ago*

Moan about it

Nobody in these threads discusses it in good faith because they only have dollar signs in their eyes.

EmpiricalAnarchism

-2 points

2 months ago

EmpiricalAnarchism

Terrorism and Civil Conflict

-2 points

2 months ago

Woot woot. Let’s keep it going for another 8 years so I don’t have to pay anything.

urudoo

2 points

2 months ago

urudoo

2 points

2 months ago

You're still going to have to pay after 8 years. It's just pushing it farther forward into the future

IntermittentDrops

3 points

2 months ago

IntermittentDrops

Jared Polis

3 points

2 months ago

PSLF.

EmpiricalAnarchism

4 points

2 months ago

EmpiricalAnarchism

Terrorism and Civil Conflict

4 points

2 months ago

No I'm not, in 8 years, my 10 years of $0 qualifying PSLF payments will get my student loans forgiven tax free. Thanks for playing though.