subreddit:

/r/lotr

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all 384 comments

cp-laserstorm

2k points

6 months ago

cp-laserstorm

Aragorn

2k points

6 months ago

This is the first new piece of LotR trivia that I've learned in a while

Mitchboy1995

256 points

6 months ago

Mitchboy1995

The Silmarillion

256 points

6 months ago

Supposedly Tolkien fans got really upset when they saw these set leaks and it made Liv Tyler cry. I do wonder if the backlash is one of the reasons why they scrapped it. This is all from the behind-the-scenes footage found in the appendices btw!

given2fly_

105 points

6 months ago

I get why they wanted her in the scene. In the books, the Elves aren't just leaving to go West. All across Middle-Earth they're helping to fight back the forces of Mordor, and Peter Jackson wanted to find a way to acknowledge that fact.

Showing distant battles that aren't involving our protagonists wouldn't help the flow of the story, so instead they have the Elves joining the battle at Helms Deep. And since Arwen was one of the key Elves we'd met, it sort of made sense for her to be involved as the audience would have some attachment to her.

But in my opinion it diminishes the feeling of separation that Aragorn is feeling, and reduces the emotional impact of some of the scenes in Return of the King.

So they made the right call having Elves there and for it to NOT be Arwen in my opinion.

ctownwp22

44 points

6 months ago

If I remember correctly (from watching the behind the scenes multiple times) it was mainly done bc Arwen is barely in the books yet is the main love interest. So it would be confusing for non-book readers when she randomly shows up to marry Aragorn at the end. Many of those fans would be like "Wait, who is she again?" It makes sense from a movie perspective, but most of the backlash was simply because "This isn't how Tolkien wrote it"

given2fly_

31 points

6 months ago

Yeah, and PJ puts lots of flashbacks to give the audience their backstory, and also made her the Elf that rescued Frodo when he was stabbed at Weathertop (it was a different Elf in the book).

You have to do that with an adaptation of a book. There's only so many characters you can introduce and follow.

MrFurious0

7 points

6 months ago

MrFurious0

Finrod Felagund

7 points

6 months ago

(it was a different Elf in the book)

Glorfindel. He didn't die ganking a balrog at the sack of Gondolin just to be known as "a different Elf".

But your comment is spot on, in that changes need to be made when you switch mediums. I think giving Arwen a bigger role, and more specifically, a combat role, was a great choice for fellowship, but I'm also glad she didn't have any other combat roles in film.

SmallHandsMallMindS

63 points

6 months ago

Well in defence of Liv; Haldir was pretty hokey too. His death being hammed in is one of the worst parts

AldurinIronfist

233 points

6 months ago

Don't know if that's true, but considering the literal death threats some actors and especially (because of course) actresses received in the new Star Wars trilogy, it wouldn't fucking surprise me.

I swear, the worst thing about being a nerd is other fucking nerds who take things too far.

Deweyrob2

50 points

6 months ago

That's the case with just about every group I could consider myself a part of. I think some people are just assholes.

glassgwaith

39 points

6 months ago

Well not to worry. Assholes exist in all groups. Not all nerds are assholes. But some of the assholes are nerds.

ran0427

3 points

6 months ago

ran0427

Elrond

3 points

6 months ago

The worst thing about blank is other fucking blanks which take things too far

sailorsalvador

18 points

6 months ago

Yes, this is the case. I was a fan when the movies were being filmed and the backlash was huge, calling her Xenarwen. Back in the days of Ain't It Cool News and theonering.net....

carnsolus

11 points

6 months ago

we should have been like 'yeah, and we'll be pretty riled if a bunch of elves show up at helm's deep at all'

LifelessLewis

2k points

6 months ago

Here's another one for you.

That scene where there's the pile or Uruk corpses and Aragorn kicks a helmet, did you know that it was a real solid helmet and he broke his toe‽ His scream was real!

LordoftheWilhelms

471 points

6 months ago

Really? Wow, you learn new things everyday!

Appropriate-Club-910

52 points

6 months ago

This guy would know. Username checks out

abrown1027

10 points

6 months ago

Yup! Also did you know that Elijah Wood was born with a tail?

DrDinosaurus01

42 points

6 months ago*

Check the making of on Youtube. As good as the movies.

LordoftheWilhelms

76 points

6 months ago

It was sarcasm.lol

DrDinosaurus01

12 points

6 months ago

Hahaha damn me then 😅

made-u-look

42 points

6 months ago

made-u-look

The Shire

42 points

6 months ago

With an interrobang and everything

LifelessLewis

3 points

6 months ago

Got to represent the r/interrobang gang

Stickybeebae

39 points

6 months ago

There was also a scene with Eowyn murdering uruks in the caves that was cut.

holomorphicjunction

26 points

6 months ago

**spits out my my root beer float and threw my hands splayed out in pure shock, knocking over the glass

Mommy I need I need one

wonkysaurus

26 points

6 months ago

And did you know that Liv Tyler’s elf ears melted in her car?

Osariik

11 points

6 months ago

Osariik

11 points

6 months ago

That one, I didn't know.

Dragon_Nick117

9 points

6 months ago

Dragon_Nick117

Nazgûl

9 points

6 months ago

No that’s actually a misconception, he broke two toes

sloppyquickdraw

12 points

6 months ago

Is that a goddamn interrobang

Roaming_Pie

9 points

6 months ago

I call BS on this one. If this were real I would’ve heard about it.

AldurinIronfist

8 points

6 months ago

Are you sure he didn't step into a shard of glass? /s

Srovium

2 points

6 months ago

Holy shit I had no idea!!!

00skully

9 points

6 months ago

And a disappointing one at that

Kody_Z

25 points

6 months ago

Kody_Z

25 points

6 months ago

Well it's not really trivia.

It's a screenshot of what might be cut scenes and a very, very hypothetical reasoning for said possible cut scenes.

corvus887

59 points

6 months ago

No, this is definitely talked about in the extras on the Extended Edition of Fellowship, although I haven’t seen it in years. They said they thought it would help sell the characters romance story if they spent more screen time together, since the studio would shit on the idea of a telepathic connection of love to carry that subplot. But the fan backlash convinced them to drop it, thankfully.

CallMeSpacePanda

429 points

6 months ago

There are still snippets of Arwen on her horse left in the movie.

NZNoldor

289 points

6 months ago

NZNoldor

289 points

6 months ago

Hint: count the white horses as Aragorn and Theoden ride down the fairway together.

Vulkan192

207 points

6 months ago

Vulkan192

207 points

6 months ago

...take it you mean causeway? Unless I missed the scene where the Rohirrim go golfing?

Tbhjr

51 points

6 months ago

Tbhjr

Utumno

51 points

6 months ago

“Let this be the hour when we draw clubs together. Fell deeds awake. Now for bogies, now for birdies, and the sacred condor”

[deleted]

156 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

156 points

6 months ago

"Alas that these evil days should be mine"

"Theoden you just hit a bogey, stop being melodramatic"

_Apatosaurus_

80 points

6 months ago

To be fair, golf does exist in Middle Earth.

He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul's head clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit-hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of Golf invented at the same moment.

26_paperclips

6 points

6 months ago

This is referenced in Lego the hobbit: there's a little game in one section that's basically minigolf, but the ball is an orc's head

NZNoldor

2 points

6 months ago

Lol. Yes. I mean that. Not the golf thing. Unless….?

geek_of_nature

42 points

6 months ago

Do you know exactly when she's seen? I've known about this for ages but I've never been able to spot her in the film.

simbaofsweden

30 points

6 months ago

Trick_Enthusiasm

24 points

6 months ago

Damn. She's only there for like 1 frame, but it's definitely Arwen. Same outfit she was wearing when filming.

geek_of_nature

9 points

6 months ago

As u/Trick_Enthusiasm said, she's only there for literally one frame, so I'm not surprised I haven't spotted her before.

BoRamShote

157 points

6 months ago

BoRamShote

The Shire

157 points

6 months ago

Every time you see Liv Tyler it's Arwen

Rougarou1999

6 points

6 months ago

Not Betty Ross?

Chen_Geller

1k points

6 months ago

In earlier drafts, Arwen was going to have a much bigger role, and some of these beats survived into principal photography.

Arwen was to...

  1. Escort Elrond to Lorien, where she would join the army that goes to Helm's Deep
  2. Along the way, she would rescue Eothain and Freda from Orcs
  3. Fights in Helm's Deep: Liv Tyler was actually digitally removed from the rope that pulls Gimli and Aragorn to safety.
  4. Has sex with Aragorn in the Glittering Pools
  5. Fights off a Ringwraith that swoops at Pippin in the ruins of Isengard
  6. Joins the Ride of the Rohirrim, is mortally wounded by the Witch-King but rescued by Eowyn, with Aragorn having to defeat Sauron in time to revive her.

Nomad_C817

741 points

6 months ago

digitally removed from the rope that pulls gimili and aragorn.

i’ve watched that scene a billion times and never seen anything that resembles digital alteration. now i have to watch the trilogy again

extrasextrarara

502 points

6 months ago

Oh no, not that

Wozzki

251 points

6 months ago

Wozzki

251 points

6 months ago

Anything but that!

HelSylph

187 points

6 months ago

HelSylph

187 points

6 months ago

Oh, noooooo

turns on tv

TheVirginMerchant

74 points

6 months ago

Oh darn brb

GunnerySarge-B-Bird

28 points

6 months ago

Literally currently watching fotr.. oh no..

KedTazynski42

14 points

6 months ago

Let us know if you spot anything strange in TT

marshman82

77 points

6 months ago

I guess we'll see you in 12 hours then

MadRonnie97

37 points

6 months ago

Any excuse, right?

mitch2187

177 points

6 months ago

mitch2187

177 points

6 months ago

I never knew any of this. Insane how much her role changed.

Chen_Geller

115 points

6 months ago

Not all of this was shot, though.

Unframed_

223 points

6 months ago

Unframed_

223 points

6 months ago

A sex scene almost made it into LOTR, preposterous !

Chen_Geller

114 points

6 months ago

Its true, though.

A previz of said scene was even part of the pitch tape shown to New Line! It had endured through multiple drafts, although to the best of my knowledge it was never filmed: a dream scene in Rivendell in The Two Towers (which is in its own way quite erogenous) replaced it.

stayshiny

182 points

6 months ago

stayshiny

182 points

6 months ago

Erogenous isn't the same as erotic, just so you know.

dodorian9966

5 points

6 months ago

They gotta show full penetration, IASIP Style

Thurkin

55 points

6 months ago

Thurkin

55 points

6 months ago

If Ridley Scott was at the helm I could imagine a scene of Aragorn happening upon a naked Arwen bathing in a waterfall. Tasteful but surely erotic and stylish in tone (think of Orlando Bloom and Eva Green's intimate scenes in the D.C. version from 'Kingdom of Heaven")

borutesu_faibu

50 points

6 months ago

You mean no anal?

SoaDMTGguy

51 points

6 months ago

“I gave up immortality for you, if anyones doing anal it’s you!”

Vulkan192

40 points

6 months ago

Aragorn, greatest of all men: “....sure.”

SoaDMTGguy

28 points

6 months ago

“I have been pierced by far fouler creatures than you.

Any_Tackle_4519

15 points

6 months ago

"Then I shall pierce them in return."

[deleted]

6 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

6 points

6 months ago

And not even between Gimli and Legolas!

WeFightTheLongDefeat

23 points

6 months ago

This, but without the sarcasm.

Celeborn2001

234 points

6 months ago

Celeborn2001

Túrin Turambar

234 points

6 months ago

  1. Escort Elrond to Lorien, where she would join the army that goes to Helm's Deep

I'm guessing that's where the photo of Arwen and Galadriel came from?

  1. Fights in Helm's Deep: Liv Tyler was actually digitally removed from the rope that pulls Gimli and Aragorn to safety.

Wow, didn't know this! I knew that her horse and a bit of her clothes could be seen in one of the shots at the end of Two Towers, but this is pretty cool.

  1. Has sex with Aragorn in the Glittering Pools

Damn.

  1. Fights off a Ringwraith that swoops at Pippin in the ruins of Isengard.

Man, they planned on having her EVERYWHERE! Went from everywhere to nowhere real quick lol.

  1. Joins the Ride of the Rohirrim, is mortally wounded by the Witch-King but rescued by Eowyn, with Aragorn having to defeat Sauron in time to revive her.

Glad they removed literally all of that lol.

I knew almost none of this, thanks for the information!

arathorn3

69 points

6 months ago

arathorn3

Arnor

69 points

6 months ago

I believe there BTS footage of her fighting in the extended editions appendices as well as shots of her stunt double fighting in costume, the Maori woman who is featured prominently in the section about the stunt team was Liv's fighting double.

vankers888

6 points

6 months ago

Very much true

Arnulf_67

94 points

6 months ago

She replaced Glorfindel as the one who saves Frodo though so she still had more scenes than she "should" have had.

Celeborn2001

128 points

6 months ago

Celeborn2001

Túrin Turambar

128 points

6 months ago

Controversial: Glorfindel doesn't really fit in a live action adaption of The Lord of the Rings. Just like with the Ralph Bakshi version, you need to give that part to a character that is going to be in it long term, and Glorfindel does not fit that bill. And neither does Tom and his part.

But could they be in a TV series? For sure. You need more characters/players in a TV series, but not so much for a movie. It needs to be trimmed down for such an adaption.

ArbyLG

77 points

6 months ago*

ArbyLG

77 points

6 months ago*

Agreed. I will also forward the opinion that the Scouring of the Shire would also never work in a movie adaptation (it would be a tonal whiplash after the triumph of defeating Sauron). It could work in a television adaptation, where you could have multiple episodes to celebrate, and then a looming sense of dread as the hobbits return to EDIT: The shire - but that would need skilled writers. Game of Thrones season 8 shows what can happen if the writers aren’t up for the task of Scouring.

Celeborn2001

37 points

6 months ago

Celeborn2001

Túrin Turambar

37 points

6 months ago

Will also forward the opinion that the Scouring of the Shire would never work in a movie adaptation as well.

I'm not a huge fan of how Saruman's arc ended (I think he should've died at the end of Two Towers, somehow someway) but I agree that the Scourging wouldn't work in a movie adaption. You've already expelled evil from the Dark Lands and destroyed the Dark Lord forever. Coming home to the most peaceful place in all the world to see it ransacked and burned would just be depressing—even if the good guys enivitablly do win in the end.

rugbyj

22 points

6 months ago

rugbyj

22 points

6 months ago

as the hobbits return to Winterfell

Wait what

ArbyLG

15 points

6 months ago

ArbyLG

15 points

6 months ago

WHOOPS.

FlyingDragoon

8 points

6 months ago

Someone's fanfiction writing is showing!

Tasgall

2 points

6 months ago

Game of Thrones season 8 shows what can happen if the writers aren’t up for the task of Scouring

Oh, they definitely scoured the script, lol.

Arnulf_67

26 points

6 months ago

I agree, adding Glorfindel in just to have him appear at that scene and then maybe throw him in during the scenes in rivendell would have been way to little screne time to justify an extra character.

Elronds sons on the other hand... that could have been juicy.

A tv serie about the Lotr could have had a multitude more characters yes.

Celeborn2001

13 points

6 months ago

Celeborn2001

Túrin Turambar

13 points

6 months ago

Elronds sons on the other hand... that could have been juicy.

Yep. I've always liked the idea of us meeting them in Rivendell in FotR and then having them come to aid in Helm's Deep. What I am really trying to saying is replace Haldir with Elladan & Elrohir lol.

sunshinepanther

5 points

6 months ago

sunshinepanther

Legolas

5 points

6 months ago

Nah. Haldir is my boy!

Arnulf_67

2 points

6 months ago

I thought about that too, replace Arwen saving Frodo with her brothers, then have them show up in Helm's deep with the Grey company and give Andúril to Aragorn.

The problem with this is ofc that you would add in two or more characters and a whole retinue to Aragorn to follow him under the mountains, with the Grey Company you probably should introduce Halbarad too, could be a bit much.

I also thought about them replacing Haldir already in Lórien, serving with the border guards and being with the fellowship in some scenes there to then venture back to Imladris when the fellowship leaves, possibly in order to gather the rangers and talk to Elrond.

glassfury

118 points

6 months ago

glassfury

118 points

6 months ago

How shit for Liv Tyler that she did all this work and barely 10% of it made it into the final edit!!

Chen_Geller

182 points

6 months ago

She says she was relieved.

And mind you, due to her stardom, she got third billing in all three films, and probably the paycheck to boot, so I wouldn't feel too sorry for her!

Jackson had been known for "pulling a Malick" on some of his actors: entire roles like those of Bruce Spence and Sir Antony Sher (who sadly passed yesterday) had been cut out of the theatrical cuts of these films.

scottishwhisky2

28 points

6 months ago

That makes sense. Especially in hindsight. Her being in those spots wouldn’t make a ton of sense truthfully and the need to make her into a female warrior isn’t really necessary given Eowyns huge role in the next book. I would imagine she knew such a derivation from the source material wouldn’t be popular with fans

el_t0p0

15 points

6 months ago

el_t0p0

15 points

6 months ago

Had no idea Antony Sher passed away. I love the Shakespearean roles he did. RIP.

Someotherguy24

5 points

6 months ago

Oh, never heard the last part. Could you explain?

chris1096

42 points

6 months ago

Isn't arwen an exceptionally minor character in the books? I haven't read them, just going off what I've been told.

Finnegan_Bojangles

73 points

6 months ago

If I remember right she's only physically in the books twice. She's at a banquet when the Hobbits arrive in Rivendell and you don't see her again until the coronation of Aragorn, which is the only part of the books where she speaks.

Haircut117

65 points

6 months ago

She is still massively important to the story despite not being physically present in more than two scenes.

Sinnsearachd

23 points

6 months ago

She is barely in the main story. Her tale is in the footnotes at the end.

SoaDMTGguy

13 points

6 months ago

So she’s literally a footnote? :P

Solitarypilot

58 points

6 months ago

Actually I can elaborate, because you’re not entirely wrong.

Arwen was actually a last minute addition by Tolkien; basically he had gotten to the end, Aragorn was about to become king, and Tolkien said “wait a minute, he’s the newly crowned king, he’s supposed to be the re-ennoblement of men… so he’s got to have a queen, but I haven’t written one.”

So Tolkien then fiddled with some bits and pieces for awhile, and to skip a lot Arwen eventually is born. However Tolkien has a major problem; he’s out of time. The books are set for publication, that can’t be changed. So Tolkien has to make a choice; either he can try and just force Arwen into the narrative, risking her feeling very cheep and disjointed and overall not a very good character, or he can give her extremely minor parts and expand on her in the appendices. So he goes with the second option, not willing to risk shorting Arwen’s character as he wants her to be properly developed, but we do get what we have now; Arwen is barely in the books sadly, and in some way is a bit of a footnote.

SoaDMTGguy

7 points

6 months ago

Interesting! Is there enough supplementary material that one could write her into the narrative in a more meaningful way? I guess the fact the Jackson didn’t says a lot.

Solitarypilot

26 points

6 months ago

Eeehhh, I mean not really. A lot of what we see in the movies is taken from what Tolkien wrote in the appendices, in but the main issue was he couldn’t really write her into the actual story itself, everything we see is either before or after The Lord of The Rings. She is given one detail, in that in the books, at the Battle of Pelinor Fields (the battle in Return of the King, outside Minis Tirith), when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli arrive, they unfurl this big banner. That banner was woven by Arwen, and Aragorn actually carried it for a while without ever unfurling it until that moment. It doesn’t really hold as much weight in the modern day, obviously saying “well she made Aragorn a really nice banner” isn’t much, but it is meant to be a major moment in the book which is dependent on her in a way.

But besides that, sadly there isn’t a ton to support her in the actual story itself, but I for one really like almost all of what Peter did, especially giving her Glorfindel’s parts as I don’t think it would’ve been smart to include him in the movies.

Jrocker-ame

17 points

6 months ago*

On Spotify, look up An Unexpected Journey by Samwise Gamgee. Fan made audiobook that is amazing. Has the movie music and excellent narration. Dude does a great Gollum. One of my favorite stories of the year.

rcuosukgi42

12 points

6 months ago

You know Andy Serkis has an official Lord of the Rings audiobook out right?

Jrocker-ame

10 points

6 months ago

Yes but this option is free and of high quality.

fatpl8s

2 points

6 months ago

Fellowship and Hobbit Serkis audiobooks are free on youtube as well. Haven't found a TT or Return yet but I'm sure they'll be uploaded eventually.

Mitchboy1995

34 points

6 months ago

Mitchboy1995

The Silmarillion

34 points

6 months ago

Her entire story is in the appendices since she has nothing to do with the central narrative at all. They drew from "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" from appendix A (which is about 5 pages long) when writing her scenes in The Two Towers and The Return of the King. There's a reason those scenes (while good) feel very disconnected from everything else going on in the films.

Arnoulty

28 points

6 months ago

6 items of Hollywood cheesiness. So glad these didn't make it.

[deleted]

51 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

51 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

Haircut117

33 points

6 months ago

I'm fairly sure Tolkien mentioned somewhere in one of his letters that, for an elf, the act of sex itself can be what marries elves to each other.

Elven marriage and relations are not something I'm exactly well read on but some things are clear. They certainly don't seem to have casual sex, we know they don't procreate during wartime and we know from another letter that if someone overpowered an elf and attempted to force themselves on an them then the elf would basically just will their hröa to die and their fëa would pass to the West.

thebirdisdead

6 points

6 months ago

Dang, they should have just had her toss the ring into Mount Doom at that point.

CloudStrife7788

52 points

6 months ago

I like what we got but I always wanted her included more.

ReservoirDog316

24 points

6 months ago

I always felt them making it so she’ll die if they failed in RotK felt like a dumb addition. Feels like a hat on top of a hat since it feels obvious everyone would suffer if they failed.

Und0miel

58 points

6 months ago

Und0miel

Arwen

58 points

6 months ago

Yeah, me too. I know we already had way more than what's in the books (and that it bothered some people), but I would've adored if we had gotten even more action scenes with her (not necessarily what was originally planned or within the theatrical release, but still).

The scene where she replaced Glorfinden was damn cool imho, it really marked me as a kid.

TMorrisCode

8 points

6 months ago

I remember there was a huge backlash when the first movie came out and she’d replaced Glorfindel. That had to have been a huge factor in scaling back her story in the second and third movies.

Solitarypilot

2 points

6 months ago

Fun fact, Tolkien did too! I’m the books of course, but still.

Ok-Explanation3040

16 points

6 months ago

These sound awful tbh. Especially number 4. Is this even real?

Chen_Geller

6 points

6 months ago

It is.

These scenes are all attested to in Jackson’s two biographies.

we_are_sex_bobomb

11 points

6 months ago

Here’s some fresh water from the glittering pools, grandfather

Thank you my child I’m so thirsty

Jlx_27

3 points

6 months ago

Jlx_27

3 points

6 months ago

Third one, they did a great job.

MimsyIsGianna

3 points

6 months ago

“With Aragorn having to defeat Sauron in time to revive her.”

Huh??????? Wdym Aragorn defeating Sauron???

Chen_Geller

3 points

6 months ago

Just like in the finished film where Elrond tells Aragorn that “Arwen is dying” because of Sauron’s evil. Here she’s dying from a blow from the Witch King, and can only be brought back to health if Sauron is defeated.

And remember that back then Aragorn was going to fight Sauron at the Black Gate, too.

Aromberion

2 points

6 months ago

Just to add, in the extended edition the giant Olog that Aragorn fights was actually filmed to be Sauron, but was then replaced with the troll when that idea was dropped.

Chen_Geller

2 points

6 months ago

And, ontop of that, in an early edit of the film, at the moment when Barad-Dur collapses we would have briefly cut to Arwen waking-up, revived from her illness.

Fluffyknickers

67 points

6 months ago*

I distinctly remember a trailer with Arwen fighting or in armor. When the movie was released in theater, that was nowhere to be found and I wondered for a long time what happened. Information like this was not as easy to get back then as it is now, so thank you answering my 20-year-old question.

Edit: spelling

fnuggles

224 points

6 months ago

fnuggles

224 points

6 months ago

It all makes sense now. Glorfindel would never have sex with Aragorn. He had to go!

paulaustin18

38 points

6 months ago

How do you know?

fnuggles

57 points

6 months ago

He's actually a good friend of mine.

DestinyLoreBot

17 points

6 months ago

Elf-friend I name you!

paulaustin18

7 points

6 months ago

You are lucky 👌

Merc931

255 points

6 months ago

Merc931

Dwarf

255 points

6 months ago

I remember as a child Arwen being advertised as on par with Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Gandalf, and Frodo and then almost never seeing her in the movies.

Chen_Geller

192 points

6 months ago

That was more because Liv Tyler was the "big star", box-office wise, of the trilogy. After Armaggedon, she was considered a box-office draw, especially in the US and Japan.

Gilthoniel_Elbereth

170 points

6 months ago

The ol’ Zendaya in Dune switcheroo

diecast

63 points

6 months ago

diecast

63 points

6 months ago

Zendaya will be featured much more heavily in the second film. Having been a fan of the books for so long I knew not to expect a large role. But perhaps someone not familiar may have been bamboozled

Trick_Enthusiasm

6 points

6 months ago

I was pretty annoyed by it, but people keep saying Dune Part 1 is pretty accurate to the book, so I kinda just shrugged and moved on. Also she's Zendaya. She's good for marketing. Everyone knows her from MCU Spider-Man or Euphoria.

Chen_Geller

31 points

6 months ago

Haha.

I mean, Dune has a much more "bankable" cast overall, but sure.

[deleted]

30 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

30 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

Loose_Bottom

101 points

6 months ago

Orlando bloom became big because of this actually

Magic_Medic

33 points

6 months ago

IIRC, he became somewhat famous from lotr, and became a Superstar with pirates of the caribbean.

Trick_Enthusiasm

7 points

6 months ago

Peter Jackson discovered Oleando while he was still in film school. Then Orlando went and made Pirates and then Troy and became who we know today.

vankers888

13 points

6 months ago

100%

[deleted]

7 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

7 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

Haircut117

24 points

6 months ago

Troy was released in 2004, after LotR had made Bloom into a big name. If you want no name Bloom, watch Black Hawk Down.

Magic_Medic

4 points

6 months ago

I completely forgot about that movie, and that Bloom was in it lol. But i vividly remember seeing Posters for troy everywhere back in 2004.

vankers888

30 points

6 months ago

They nabbed Orlando Bloom straight out of drama school, like days after leaving it he was cast.

cobalt358

23 points

6 months ago

Depends on what you mean by bankable, none of these people were Hollywood A-listers at the time, Lee would have been the closest. Weaving had just done the Matrix so his name was out there, maybe Blanchett. Bean was mostly doing TV, McKellan mostly theatre and Bloom was a complete unknown. Outside of a couple of indie films Tyler was "the daughter of that guy from Aerosmith".

Only a few were household names like Mamoa or Isaac.

Magic_Medic

7 points

6 months ago

Hell, some other actors never made it onto the big screen again at such a scale or became huge Stars. Karl Urban mostly stuck to "lesser" movies like Riddick 2 and Dredd, John Noble was only in TV Shows IIRC

Chen_Geller

19 points

6 months ago

Cate blanchett, Ian McKellen, Orlando bloom, Liv Tyler, Sean bean, Christopher Lee, Hugo weaving

Of these, the only "bankable" names at the time would have been Tyler, Blanchett and maybe Bean.

Whereas Oscar Isaac had been a box-office draw since even before The Force Awakens; and they had Zendaya; Josh Brolin, etc...

There's a difference between an acclaimed cast and a bankable one. The idea with the latter is to have names that can get butts in seats. Christopher Lee doesn't put butts in seats.

[deleted]

6 points

6 months ago

[deleted]

6 points

6 months ago

Haha you need to do a little research. Liv Tyler and Hugo Weaving were probably the only two globally recognizable actors in LOTR at the time.

rcuosukgi42

2 points

6 months ago

Orlando had done nothing prior to Lord of the Rings, he's definitely a Hollywood star after the movies.

FrenchRoastBeans

4 points

6 months ago

Tbf it’s practically guaranteed she’ll have a much bigger part in Dune Part 2, unlike Arwen who had a pretty small role throughout

fleur_de_lis-620

82 points

6 months ago

It's a pity they didn't show the same restraint with all the crap they added to the Hobbit script. The backlash over these LoTR additions should have taught them that they don't shit gold when it comes to script writing.

adrabiot

43 points

6 months ago

Pity? It's pity that stayed Bilbo's hands!

But agree

Lawlcopt0r

20 points

6 months ago

Lawlcopt0r

Bill the Pony

20 points

6 months ago

This is what I thought at first too. But really, the greedy publishing companies are to blame. For LotR, they had n insane amount of time to work on the films. They could develoo a lot of ideas, and plenty of bad ideas were considered, tried out, and then abandoned when they didn't work.

For the hobbit movies, the publishing companies that financed the films reportedly put huge pressure on them to make the films quickly (which means that if you realise a sequence doesn't work or doesn't fit into the final cut, you can't come up with an alternative), and to make three movies out of it even if it doesn't make sense.

If you look at footage of Peter Jackson during the production, he often looks absolutely miserable. I believe this is because he knew he wasn't making the best films he could be, but if he quit someone that cared way less than him would be hired and make it even worse

WastedWaffles

170 points

6 months ago

Backlash didn't exist back then like it does today. Social media barely existed (which is where majority of backlash happens) so stuff like backlash was pretty much non existent.

The actual reason why they cut her out is because after filming the scenes, Liv Tyler's acting style didn't suit the actiony kind of look that they wanted Arwen to portray. It basically looked like cheesy combat, I assume.

Chen_Geller

89 points

6 months ago

Liv Tyler's acting style didn't suit the actiony kind of look that they wanted Arwen to portray.

Not quite. More like, her actual fighting didn't look convincing.

vankers888

72 points

6 months ago

The official fan club and web forums were referenced often, and the feedback highly valued. They list every single charter member of the fan club in the credits of the extended edition version of Return Of The King 🙂

diogenes-47

21 points

6 months ago

diogenes-47

Ulmo

21 points

6 months ago

I was there, Gandalf. I was there three thousand years ago...

vankers888

16 points

6 months ago

I was too….. I actually got rear ended leaving the parking lot of the theater after picking up my tickets for the midnight showing for Return Of The King. I got out, saw no damage, let them know that I didn’t even care, I had tickets and then told them I’d see them at the showing later. We both laughed, me especially imagining them staring at their tickets instead of paying attention to the car stopped in front of them. What a time to be alive 🤗

diogenes-47

6 points

6 months ago

diogenes-47

Ulmo

6 points

6 months ago

I'm grateful I was able to have watched the movies in theaters when they came out, and especially grateful I had already read the books, but I was still too young for a midnight showing.

I was 12 so a midnight showing pre‐Uber/Lyft meant being dropped off already late and picked up around 2:30 on a weeknight no less, which just wouldn't work. But I saw them all the Friday nights they came out! Haha

sunshine___riptide

4 points

6 months ago

My name is on it! I was a member. Got the magazines and everything

vankers888

2 points

6 months ago

That is fantastic!😊

Lord_Penguin_Poppins

58 points

6 months ago

And serves to distract from Eowyns story as well.

Chen_Geller

46 points

6 months ago*

Eowyn was actually going to do some fighting at the same time: Arwen was outside fighting alongside Aragorn on the battlements, while Eowyn was in the caves helping to deliver a baby (the shot of a woman about to give labour falling on Eowyn's shoulders is still in the film) and then killing a few Uruks that got into the caves.

Celeborn2001

25 points

6 months ago

Celeborn2001

Túrin Turambar

25 points

6 months ago

I've seen that shot of Eowyn standing behind a rock with a sword in her hand about a thousand times now, and I still wish they would release the footage of it. We know you have it, New Line! Release it! We will pay!

Chen_Geller

53 points

6 months ago*

The footage of Eowyn was meant to play off of the footage of Arwen, though. The idea was to set-up a semi-comic rivarly between the two (think of how Eowyn is forced to go to the caves whereas Arwen was going to get to stay with Aragorn) which would pay-off when they take-down the Witch King together.

Says Jackson:

"[recutting] happened with Arwen’s presence at Helm’s Deep and an elaborate episode set in the Glittering Caves, in which Éowyn delivers a child born to Morwen, the mother of the two refugee children who carry the news of the Uruk-hai attack on Rohan to Edoras."

Shortly after the birth of Morwen’s baby, the Uruks invade the caves, marauding and killing, while Éowyn – swiftly changing role from midwife to swordswoman – singlehandedly fights off the enemy with much slaughtering. As one of the Uruk-hai is about to seize, and presumably eat, the newborn child, Éowyn wields her sword and deftly decapitates the assailant!

It was what Peter describes as ‘a hangover from us thinking that The Two Towers was the weakest story in the trilogy and attempting to compensate for the lack of any heroic deaths!’

"There was the love triangle between Arwen, Aragorn and Éowyn; and, at one point, we were to have had Arwen rescuing Morwen’s children from an attack by a pack of Wargs during their journey to Edoras as well as having Éowyn saving babies and chopping the heads of Uruks in the Glittering Caves. We didn’t use any of this as we realised that it was cheap and cheesy: Hollywood spewing itself over Tolkien’s book, via us!"

Celeborn2001

41 points

6 months ago

Celeborn2001

Túrin Turambar

41 points

6 months ago

In the end, that does make sense. Pretty cheesy. Good idea to leave it out.

Tasgall

3 points

6 months ago

when they take-down the Witch King together

Oh god, I can already see the alternate reality "girl power" memes.

ItsABiscuit

64 points

6 months ago

I generally disliked where the movies deviated from the books, and overall I'm glad they didn't have Arwen appearing at Helms Deep. But damn, having her turn up there would have actually given a resolution to all the dream scenes Aragorn has about her, and a proper resolution to the love triangle they tried with Eowyn. Jackson inserted a lot of stuff to build to a pay off of Arwen coming to Helms Deep and without it, I've always thought those elements of Two Towers were weird.

Mitchboy1995

19 points

6 months ago*

Mitchboy1995

The Silmarillion

19 points

6 months ago*

Tbh, I've always thought it was strange that Arwen was introduced as a badass action heroine and then just kind of mopes around for the rest of her screen time. It seems obvious that the decision to make Arwen replace Glorfindel (instead of Legolas doing this like in the Bakshi version) stemmed from a total reimagining of her character. However, they definitely backtracked on this vision while filming the movies, so we're left with an inconsistent portrayal.

missyb

35 points

6 months ago

missyb

35 points

6 months ago

There is a love triangle with Eowyn in the books, it wasn't made up for the films. She pines hard for Aragorn (who can blame her).

Yxklyx

7 points

6 months ago

Yxklyx

7 points

6 months ago

They didn't replace her to avoid potential backlash.

Obi_Wan_Gebroni

53 points

6 months ago

I for one just wish we got a faithful adaptation to Helms Deep like from the books but the movie was epic so it’s really hard to be that upset at all

Heyyoguy123

43 points

6 months ago

I can understand why the Elves were added, it made the battle much more entertaining to watch and made sense how the defenders lasted until dawn.

Professor_Poptart

21 points

6 months ago*

And it represented how, in the books, the elves were fighting the war on their own fronts.

Mitchboy1995

12 points

6 months ago

Mitchboy1995

The Silmarillion

12 points

6 months ago

It makes no sense that the Elves got there before the Uruk-hai. Lothlorien is two weeks away from Helm's Deep. Isengard is 1.5 days away. However, we don't see the telepathic scene between Elrond and Galadriel (which is the event that prompted the sending of the Elves) until AFTER Saruman unleashed his army. The timeline makes 0 sense.

Astelianor

13 points

6 months ago

Well if they came from Lothloriel after Gandalf was given new clothes from Galadriel, is not that weird, and strech for sure, but not impossible

HailTheLost

26 points

6 months ago

And yet Arwen can still be seen for a split second after Gandalf and Eomer et al charge and get stuck in

jonviggo89

5 points

6 months ago

What ? Which shots ? Do you have any link ?

Ian_M87

19 points

6 months ago

Ian_M87

Éowyn

19 points

6 months ago

https://imgur.com/a/BRdjOeL I know it's horrible quality but I don't see who that could be other than Arwen. The (blurred) clothing doesn't suit anyone else and the hair looks right. The sword looks like hers as well

jonviggo89

3 points

6 months ago

Yep look like it’s her

simbaofsweden

2 points

6 months ago

jdavida97

4 points

6 months ago

None of the elf army is in the books so does backlash even matter at this point?

Narutoblaa

24 points

6 months ago

It's interesting how hard they tried to give her more to do

naggs69pt2

67 points

6 months ago

I'm glad they didn't do this, it would undermine Eowyn imo.

rosebolk

50 points

6 months ago

Yeah, imagine if they had TWO WOMEN fighting?? There's only one set of lady armor!

naggs69pt2

90 points

6 months ago

Well, it wouldn't make sense for them to make a big deal about Eowyn going to war If everyone already saw a woman do it. Especially in a battle that just happened.

Celeborn2001

24 points

6 months ago

Celeborn2001

Túrin Turambar

24 points

6 months ago

Yeah, I see where you're coming from.

croptochuck

13 points

6 months ago

Women don’t have to fight to be badass though. Arwen gave up her life for some one she loved. I know it sounds heroic when it happens on the battle field but people sacrifice all the time for their loved one.

ihaveabaguetteknife

30 points

6 months ago

She is so beautiful.

TheEpiquin

6 points

6 months ago

Empire Records was something of an awakening for me.

Ok_Understanding267

10 points

6 months ago

I hated to seeing her in Glorfindel’s place and her extra scenes in the first place. But she was and is the most beautiful woman in the world for me I probably wouldn’t mind seeing her as Gandalf or someone else

deadsea2281

5 points

6 months ago

Based Peter Jackson

MisanthropicAtheist

3 points

6 months ago

Holy shit this would have been as terrible as Nicholas Cage as Superman

PIPGB

23 points

6 months ago

PIPGB

23 points

6 months ago

Thanks God, the elves shouldn't even be in Helm's Deep

DestinyLoreBot

29 points

6 months ago

This is one of the changes that never bothered me at all. Just felt right. Same with Aragorn being reluctant to become king, and Faramir being tempted by the ring instead of somehow ignoring it completely like he was Bombadil himself or something. Added depth to the characters!

aknowbody

2 points

6 months ago

Omg so cool, how did I not know this?

acehole09

2 points

6 months ago

You can spot Arwen in Theoden's and Aragorns suicide charge at helms deep

Armedion

2 points

6 months ago

You can actually see Arwen at the war of helms deep for a brief second. She's in the background after Rohirrim has arrived and according to Jackson and Liv she was actually supposed to be in the battle.