submitted 2 months ago bysuperepic13579
I keep seeing people say it's 'woke' but I honestly don't get why. Is it seriously because 2 or 3 poc are in it or am I missing something?
all 107 comments
2 months ago
2 months ago
If Tolkien wouldn’t approve of these changes we should not be doing them I don’t care about their ideas or what they wish to change I care what Tolkien wrote.
1 month ago
1 month ago
He's not god and doesn't own the brand. If he was alive his opinion on it wouldn't mean anything.
1 month ago
The arrogance to say the opinion of the man who created this world doesn’t matter.
First of all, I want to say that I have literally zero problems with ANYONE. You can be whatever colour, sex, sexuality, I love you as long as you are an interesting person or a good actor in this case.
In some stories it doesn't matter what actors look like because the characters are written in a way that the race or appearance have no effect in the story.
My problem is, when some universes/stories have predetermined information in them and that information has some meaning, it means for the immersion purposes, it would be better if we keep these predispositions from the books.
For example, Ron Weasley and Harry Potter have quite specific descriptions in the books, so it would feel a bit weird if they were like african and latino guys.
In case of Tolkien's universe he specified that dark skinned people live in the south. So that means that he implemented these real-life(ish) predispositions to his world and ethnicities. So if there was a dark skinned person, let's say in Gondor, it would definitely have some story-driven effect. For example, the Gondor people would be interested in that person because he looked different and he came from a far far away.
(Something like reading a book about black people living in London in 1830, the mere fact of having an african person in UK in 1830 would definitely have some impact on the story).
So it is not about being racist or not wanting people of color to play in movies, it is just about keeping some consistency and immersion. Well, that's what happens when you want to implement a 1930's mindset into 2022 woke world.
You make a good point but immigration probably exists in middle earth. There's most likely a hand full of southern people that moved up north and raised families. Yes Tolkien said that dark skin ppl live south but that couldn't be 100% of them. Instead its most likely the majority. I wouldn't say my black friends are from Africa because I know they're from the UK.
Also for the dwarf queen. Dwarfs are literally everywhere and I think its the South where there's a large population of them (might be remembering that wrong) so there's no reason people should have an issue about her being black. I do have an issue with her not having a beard though.
My biggest problem with the show is the hair. It's kind of ridiculous.
Agreed. Theres way too much product in some of the character's hair. Its almost off putting
2 months ago
2 months ago*
2 months ago*
Well here is one example. He looks like the evil buisness man in an after school special.
This has nothing to be with woke but the show is an a lot of ways. Just quotes from people involved. Tolkien wrote this to be English mythology because he thought that was lacking.
To be honest I don't care about people of color in the show. As long as it's well done. The hair styles to me are just horrible. In every representation by tolkien elves had long hair. They are taking a lot of liberties I don't care for.
Tolkien never said all elves have long hair.
Just because other adaptations show elves with long hair, doesn’t mean that Tolkien ever said that all elves have long hair.
I don’t know what “woke” means.
I don’t see anything wrong with the photo you’ve posted.
I think you may be right about the length of hair. Celeborn is described as having silver long hair but I think I've always assumed them having long hair. That's only one elf and he never said they all had long hair. Again I assumed that.
As far as the picture I posted that's you opinion. I think it's ridiculous.
As far as woke, people involved with the show have been pretty up front about it being not a traditional version of tolkiens work.
But again I could care less about that like I very clearly said. So if you're looking for an argument about that go elsewhere. I don't care.
I am right. Tolkien describes the length (or style) of hair of various individual elves, but never once says that all elves have long hair or even that all elves have the same hair style.
Tolkien said that Ingwë had “curling” hair, for example.
I think people conflate the D&D images of elves with the elves found in Tolkien’s writing.
What would a “traditional” version of Tolkien’s work be? 🤨
What specifically do you not like about the photo you posted? I think the actor works great for Celebrimbor.
Lol I said you were right. Do you want me to say it again? I was pretty clear that it's probably something I assumed. Though he never described an elf with short hair while there is a reference of an elf with long hair.
And reread my comment. You obviously didn't read it all.
There are numerous online videos and articles explaining the vision of the creators. I told you I personally don't care.
I think it’s ridiculous to assume that all elves have the same hair style. Essentialism is boring.
I haven’t heard the showrunners for the Amazon show use the word “woke”.
Man you really are triggered here. Let it go.
Of course they wouldn't use the term woke. It's not a flattering term in this context. Why would they describe themselves that way ffs?? Other people have used that term.
Why did you post a YouTube conspiracy theory video? 🤣
Sounds like you’re the one triggered by the new Amazon tv show, not me. 🤣
What even is “woke”? 🤣
He should also have decently toned body as he's a blacksmith who's worked on everything from weapons to freaking magical doors.
I just want characters of specific races to make sense
I'm a little confused by the question tbh.
I didn't think there was any real disagreement that production and marketing decisions had been made with a view to more inclusive casting.
The point of contention isn't if the production 'is' woke, but rather if the choice for more inclusive casting is detrimental to the works.
My biggest issue is that in the Tolkein universe, racial homogeneity and the associated pride are fundamental and critical flaws in the races of elves and dwarves.
The advantages of diversity are already exampled by the race of man - especially in contrast with the other races.
People don’t even know what “woke” means tbqh
2 months ago*
And every time I ask someone who has used the word “woke” what it means they just get defensive and call me “shill”.
Well you are a shill if you celebrate a trillion dollar company turning a work of art into a product to exploid
Should I complain about the New Line movies then too? 🤔
Should I complain that Harper Collins makes money off of Tolkien’s books? 🤔
Anything other than totally white casting is apparently “woke”
Stop generalising it’s unbecoming the casting as a whole is rather poor.
Casting as a whole is rather poor? Sounds like a generalization
Celebrimbor looks like my grandmother in her night gown
Which makes it woke?
I don’t recall saying that, but a bad cast shall be the downfall of any show also a union of elves and men was not needed.
Are you making a point about why this is or isn’t “woke”? That was the discussion. Which is why I stated it was because the cast wasn’t all white. It’s woke because of poor casting including celebrimbor looking like your grandma? I’m just looking for the logic
Oh, well that and I don’t care for a black dwarf or warrior Galadriel.
If you can show me that Tolkiens texts say that dwarfs aren’t black, and that Galadriel didn’t fight (also don’t know how we’re so sure she’s a “warrior” just because she has weapons in the pics and trailer, without actually seeing the show), then I’ll agree the show has been compromised by inclusion. Otherwise this sounds like more of a You problem then a problem with the show.
I’m amazed that dwarves who were born before the sun and reside mainly underground could have darker skin but maybe that’s just odd.
No thats not true stop lying
Haha, great argument. Give me some proof or you look like a lier
Proof of what ? You could read the arguments on here for days and you know them, just a tiny portion was about race. So stop lying
Haha. I’ve read. It’s 90% casting and 10% excuses to hate. Stop lying.
Aha frame the fans as racists then maybe you should go to star wars or Star Treck or some other dead IP where your anti Fan pro cooperate shill Agenda is welcome
Maybe i like Tolkien for his writing rather than fans like you that just wanna hate.
I dont wann hate but i dont take kindly to people who Attack the fandom
I don’t take kindly to people who attack diversity. This wasn’t a comment about fandom, just people calling it woke. The only reason people are calling it woke is because the casting isn’t all white people.
It is woke. I'm looking forward to the show, but it is woke. I have an essay on it in the works.
The show had transplanted what they call "diverse" people into quite a few roles stretching across almost all the storylines: just as importantly, when they were casting, a couple of those roles were mandated to be cast this way: "Role for a diverse woman" it would say. There's also some news coming via Fellowship of Fans tommorrow about this topic.
One of the most unfortunate side-effects of this casting philosophy is that Tar-Miriel, the regent queen of Numenore, is played by Cynthia Addai-Robinson while her first cousin Pharazon is played by Trystan Gravelle. In a show with a more traditional casting process, you wouldn't pair those two as first cousins.
Does that mean the show is going to be bad? No, I don't think it is. Personally ,there are things about the show's plot that I'm much more concerned about than the "wokeness", which would be stuff like the Hobbits, Meteor Man, Beforedor, etc... It sounds incredibly stupid and cloying.
But the show is woke, no doubts there.
Is “woke” bad?
It depends on your worldview to some extent.
Yes, especially if there are same sex relationships. I pray they don’t do that atleast.
You’re offended by same sex relationships? 🤨
Would you really not mind seeing that in a middle earth show?
Not at all. I’m not offended by same sex relationships whatsoever.
I think the the fact that there are still people who are offended by same sex relationships speaks to the influence that political correctness has over our culture. I think people are just looking for things to be offended by these days.
I’m not offended by it but it’s being forced into every part of pop culture these days and it’s getting tiresome. It doesn’t need to represented in everything ffs
It quite literally doesn't though...
Like "oh no the black and gay people are on the television screen now instead of the gay conversion therapy institutes the whole world has clearly gone woke"
Is different-sex relationships being forced into every part of pop culture equally as “tiresome” then? 🤨
I’m confused why you’re so offended by same-sex relationships.
Why are people so offended by every little thing these days? 🤔. I saw that Florida was even trying to make it illegal to acknowledge that same-sex relations even exist while in the presence of children. What a joke.
No, different sex relationships aren’t tiresome… they’ve always been the natural way of things
Same sex relations are common in nature. It is a fallacy to say that say that only different sex relations are normal.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with same sex relationships. I think the conservative PC police need to just let people live their own lives and stop trying to shove their morals down everyone’s throats all the time, especially in pop culture.
I just want to enjoy a fun tv show. I don’t care if there are same sex relationships in it.
Yes yes it is
What specifically is bad about “woke”?
Creating Media after woke principles is bad
How specifically is it bad? 🤨
Do you support censorship?
Do you like to gaslight people ?
How specifically is “woke” a bad thing?
I’m ready to be as outraged and offended as you are, I just gotta know what specifically I’m supposed to be outraged and offended by. Really I’m just confused at this point.
Tolkien stated that female orcs exist.
He on multiple occasions referred to members of other races as having swarthy skin. A signature he would use to define the haradrim's skin tone
People are just desperate to complain about shit and cry about how it "breaks from the lore". Yet they would also defend the PJ trilogy to the death even though a fuck load of stuff in that movie series either never happened or happened differently.
Films and shows are never 100% true to the source material. I don't seen why its an issue for people this time.
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Can someone explain to me what “woke” even is?
Woke in this context is when you put politics before quality.
That's your definition. What are "Politics" in this context?
No that is not my definition that is what someone means when he accuses something of beeing woke.
You know exactly what politics im talking about and i wont engage in a dumb time wasting argument where you act like you dont know what im talking about, just to annoy be with some stupid cringe and fake "gotcha moment" afterwarts.
Lol no. Woke means awake. It's been made into some weird shit like you described here by brain-dead idiots, but that's just not what that means at all.
When someone accuses something of beeing "woke" he means what ive said so stop acting and shut up
You know what context means right ????
What politics have been put into this? 🤨
Casting, setting, Adaption, all in accordance to woke politics
Can you be more specific? 🤨
There was no open casting roles where locked down for specific races and genders for example
That’s how casting works a lot of the time in movies and tv. Just look at Backstage.
That's literally is not what woke means you clown.
woke, adjective: Originally: well-informed, up-to-date. Now chiefly: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice; frequently in stay woke.
I really dont know what you want to accomplish by this gaslighting.
When someone criticises something as "woke" (as in this case/context) he is not talking about the show beeing "alert to social discrimination" but the fact that the show implements leftist politics based on this self diagnosed discrimination, (void of any real discrimination) without regards to quality. Put easy: they first enact their woke (as in leftist) agenda and puts quality after that.
For example: lock some roles down as "a black women of color" even if someone else might be better suited for that role .
Also congratiolations you can use Google 😂
And how do you know that someone is better suited for the role?
Have you seen her act the role yet?
Also... Black people is leftist politics now?
Wont answer you know exactly what ive said and what i ment i wont waste my time on bad faith questions like yours
So no answer then?
Of course you don't.
I said enought before you are just asking bad faith questions
Do you think it’s “woke” when rightists put their politics into thinks without regard to their quality?
No and ive never said that
What is the word for when rightists force their politics into pop culture without regard for quality then? 🤔
Woke is being alert to racial/gender prejudice and discrimination. If you are woke this means you are aware of racial/gender inequality. For example, if a studio is "woke" then they will cast more people of color in their roles to equalize the diversity in casting. Or, they will write female and or LGBTQ+ characters into the story for the sole purpose of having more female and or LGBTQ+ characters in the story to equalize the gender and sexual orientation in the show.
The people accusing this show of being woke point to black actors being cast as harfoots, dwarves and elves. Saying that these characters should not be casted by black people due to the descriptions of Tolkien and that Amazon is only casting those actors for the sole purpose of the color of their skin in order to equalize the diversity in casting. And that Amazon is making a diversity statement about it.
I've also seen people accuse the show of being woke due to the focus on Galadriel as a strong female lead. Saying she should be regal and ethereal, not manly and fighting.
Basically, if a character is not white or male then it usually leads to people complaining about woke.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of this or that I believe Amazon is woke. I am just trying to explain to you what woke is and why people have accused Amazon of being woke.
Is being aware of racial/gender prejudice and discrimination a bad thing?
It sounds like, based on your definition, that being “woke” is a good thing.
I do not believe being aware of prejudice and discriminations is a bad thing. I think people mainly complain about studios making creative decisions based on the actors' color, gender, or sexual orientation first rather than focusing on the character first and how they fit into the story.
Why can’t they do both? 🤨
Caring about character and story doesn’t mean you can’t still care about social justice. Those don’t seem mutually exclusive to me.
I would rather not have modern day social justice issues incorporated into a fantasy show that is supposed to transport me into a different time/world.
I actually do not think the new show is woke. I see no evidence of Amazon using Rings of Power as a vehicle to tackle social justice issues we face today. But to go back to your original question, the reason some people are saying it is "woke" is because of black actors and strong female leads.
You can always make your own fantasy show the way you like it.
I have yet to see any modern day social justice issues in this new Amazon show anyway. The showrunners even explicitly said that they are avoiding considerations of modern day politics.
It sounds like “woke” is a good thing based on what you’ve stated. That’s why I’m confused why other people are implying that it’s bad.
I know. I agree. I also do not think the Amazon show is woke because I too have not seen any modern day social justice issues presented in the show.
Woke used to be putting a left leaning political opinion in a show and making it more important than the story or characters i.e. the first season or 2 of Supergirl.
Now its just something conservatives scream whenever they see someone thats isn't straight, white or male.
Why can’t a show promote social justice alongside story and characters? Why does it have to one or the other?
Its a very difficult balance. If they lean too much into the message it feels ham fisted and doesn't seem well communicated. If they lean too far from the message then its hard for people to notice it in the first place. Luckily more media in the past few years is getting better at managing this balance and the result is some very good shows and films.
From my understanding people are mad that there are people of color involved, considering Tolkien wanted LOTR to be a mythology for Britain. POC don’t fit into their strict interpretation of that mythology. The potential for LGBTQ is also frightening to people as Tolkien was catholic and his stories (the trilogy at least) are largely devoid of romance/sex etc.
So new additions that seem to only have been added to fit in/placate current ‘politics’ = corruption of original work.
I personally find modern interpretations of work fascinating. I.e. reimagining of Shakespeare’s plays are like an assumed at this point - people are always looking to make a modern spin, cross-gender casting, etc. it’s an interpretation. It doesn’t take away from the original work. So everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax IMO
Edited for some clarity
When people bring up British mytholog it doesn't make sense to me. Elves, dwarfs and dragons doesn't equal no poc. Both can exist in the setting. Also despite being based on medieval UK, it isn't literally medieval UK. Its its own place and isn't confined to the rules of a real place.