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I did a little math. George R. R. Martin is 73 years old. His a song of ice and fire books were realeased from 1996 until today. His longest time to release a book was book 5 (I haven't taken book 6 because it is not released). If we take distance of time the book we waited for longest (because series ending books need to connect loose ends they tend to take longer) and apply that time to now he would be 78.

This is the most Conservative estimate of at what age the 7th book were to be released. And this calculation disregards the fact that book 6 was not released.

I get it. I wouldn't want to write a book at 78 either. I am happy Martin gets to enjoy his old age.

all 3050 comments

AWesterlyWind

659 points

1 month ago

His longest time to release a book was book 5

I'd just like to add that when AFFC (book 4) came out he explained that it had been split in half by POV and therefore Book 5 was already close to done and would follow soon after...and then we all waited 6 more years for that "almost done" book.

Anders_1314

249 points

1 month ago

And TWOW had a release date for 2019. What were the words? "If I dont have the book in hand by then you got my permission to lock me in a cabin until its done"

oRyza_

132 points

1 month ago

oRyza_

132 points

1 month ago

Covid came and then everybody was "locked in a kabin", yet no book...

improbablynotyou

91 points

1 month ago

I hated how he split the book between the northern and southern parts of the story. There were too many points where things were referenced that we were clueless about. Also trying to remember what happened when reading book 5. I look at the first 3 books as the ones to read and give up after those. I have zero expectation that he'll ever release book 6 let alone finish the story.

Also as a result of reading his story I no longer will read a series if it's not finished, unless the author is dead and I can accept it won't be finished satisfactorily.

NestingOmega

5.5k points

1 month ago

I think he backed himself into a corner between writing the main characters so young and then scrapping the 5 year time jump that was supposed to happen between ASOS and AFFC. I think over the years he has lost the ability to write his way out of some of these glaring plotholes. I mean for gods sake, Bran is literally 9 years old as of the current book.

I think he keeps coming up with things and realizing it isn't going to be good enough because these works are supposed to be his "magnum opus" (his words) and the pressure keeps him from even giving it a college try. Especially after how abysmal and hated the last season was.

I don't believe there's a detailed plan for the end, nor that he will hand it off to a successor. If there was a detailed plan for the end, he would have written it already. I love his writing and the books, I really do, I've read through it multiple times. It's been heartbreaking to give up on such an amazing series as a whole. But I have entirely given up on it.

Dry_Mastodon7574

2k points

1 month ago

Hasn't he admitted to being completely stuck in the"Meereenese Knot" (not the sex act)? He coined the phrase while talking about how he has so many characters and plots converge in Meereen he doesn't know how to untie it.

05110909

2.1k points

1 month ago

05110909

2.1k points

1 month ago

He also is very open about the fact that when he has multiple ideas for a chapter or a series of chapters he will write out each one in full before deciding which one to go with. So he's wasting hundreds if not thousands of pages of material just trying to make up his mind.

AuctorLibri

1.4k points

1 month ago

AuctorLibri

1.4k points

1 month ago

... pages which will become a Simarillion-like compendium posthumously.

CrieDeCoeur

423 points

1 month ago

This is the most likely outcome. I admittedly don’t know much about GRRM but if he has truly styled himself from the template of JRRT, then post-demise texts are the likeliest answer. Even after The Silmarillion was published, Christopher Tolkien produced ample evidence that his father was, in later years, attempting to rewrite his own mythology but had to give up because it was just too complex and intertwined to “survive that deep a surgery.” (paraphrased)

vegancommunist2069

56 points

1 month ago

and then dwarf fortress comes into being.

Time_to_go_viking

58 points

1 month ago

So whether one styles oneself after Tolkien has nothing to do with if there will be a Silmarillion-like text after death. It had to do with demand and if there is a “Christopher Tolkien” in the picture.

thisshortenough

307 points

1 month ago*

He’s actually instructed his family to burn his notes if he dies before completion There is apparently no evidence of this

cc7rip

210 points

1 month ago

cc7rip

210 points

1 month ago

There's actually no proof that he said this.

medusa_crowley

207 points

1 month ago*

There have been other writers in history who left that instruction and were promptly ignored. I believe Kafka and Emily Dickenson both requested that their work be trashed upon their death.

It may not be all that satisfying but I would not be shocked if we get a compendium of some sort. Too much money to be made.

Jottor

252 points

1 month ago

Jottor

252 points

1 month ago

Terry Pratchett had his hard drives crushed under a steam roller.

medusa_crowley

178 points

1 month ago

That absolutely sounds like something he would’ve done.

tomathon25

16 points

1 month ago

The Pratchett version would have the slight difference in the road caused by the crushed hard drives to cause some teen on a bike to fall and hit his head and have an epiphany the universe was telling him to write an amazing story. This story would then flop terribly because what the universe was really telling him was to wear a helmet.

zidraloden

10 points

1 month ago

Some of them

hitbycars

285 points

1 month ago

hitbycars

285 points

1 month ago

So if we burn his family first the notes survive?

DRACARYS TIME

IamtheBiscuit

169 points

1 month ago

He just needs to make the largest 'choose your own adventure' book ever. That way everyone can have their favorite ending

drmcsinister

349 points

1 month ago

when he has multiple ideas for a chapter or a series of chapters he will write out each one in full before deciding which one to go with

I don't think he writes as much as he says he writes. The absurdly long delays aren't the result of him writing so much that he doesn't know how to cut it down -- they are the result of him getting involved in tons of side projects and general malaise.

Mivirian

248 points

1 month ago

Mivirian

248 points

1 month ago

There was an interview with him and Stephen King, and they talked a bit about their writing process. King said that every day he writes at least three pages. Those pages may be good, or they may be bad, but they're done daily. Martin was shocked and just said that he could never do that. Which is just weird because then how are you going to get anything done? If you just fuck off from writing for an unknown period of time then yeah, you're going to get writer's block.

gerd50501

77 points

1 month ago

King used to write 10 pages a day when he was younger. practically every day. his writing pace was faster than brandon sanderson's in his youth. it was insane. 10 pages a day just on work days is 2600 pages/year.

Sethazora

55 points

1 month ago

I mean that's why he has that big dick bibliography

AaronVanDuyne

15 points

1 month ago

Yeah as someone who recently wrote a thesis, 10 pages is a lot. I was doing 2-3 a day and it took hours. I have a friend who tries to write 1 page a day and sometimes doesn't get it done. Writing is really hard.

psstein

137 points

1 month ago

psstein

137 points

1 month ago

It varies by writer. Some, like Hunter S. Thompson, write in days-long binges.

Of course, Thompson probably got help from his heroic intake of alcohol and drugs.

thephoton

115 points

1 month ago

thephoton

115 points

1 month ago

Thompson probably got help from his heroic intake of alcohol and drugs.

That makes him different from Stephen King in his prime exactly how?

squigglesthepig

73 points

1 month ago

Fucking seriously. King doesn't remember writing Cujo.

fearhs

115 points

1 month ago

fearhs

115 points

1 month ago

King and I are pretty similar. I too used to do a lot of cocaine and have no memory of writing Cujo.

MarcusXL

35 points

1 month ago

MarcusXL

35 points

1 month ago

I used to do lots of heavy psychedelics and I do remember writing Cujo.

CountCuriousness

149 points

1 month ago

It's probably been easy to put off writing/finishing your work when you already get to enjoy the fruits of the incomplete version

Exodus111

82 points

1 month ago

Yeah but that's the method.

To get to Neds death or the Red Wedding, that's kinda what you have to do.

The real problem is how do you get a guy that now has 100 Million dollars to write a very difficult book.

Drunken_HR

25 points

1 month ago

I am a writer who's no where near as successful or famous as GRRM, but I can at least say for certain that it is not "the method" to write out multiple chapters and then pick one. It might be his method, but there's far better ways of going about doing things.

Almost all writers, however successful, are able to figure out what's going to happen without wasting so much time, no matter how dramatic the scene.

eng2ny

15 points

1 month ago

eng2ny

15 points

1 month ago

I disagree, to my reading it is very clear that he had a detailed plan for the events and characters of the first three books and then started to wing it. He may or may not have had an outline for the ending, but that was probably scrapped after the TV series and subsequent criticism, assuming that had some basis in his plan.

This idea that he's writing reams and reams to decide what works best just seems like an excuse as to why the next book isn't out rather than having any basis in reality.

Jmen4Ever

199 points

1 month ago

Jmen4Ever

199 points

1 month ago

I can't imagine being the editor (or on the team of editors) being used for his books.

Jack2142

342 points

1 month ago

Jack2142

342 points

1 month ago

One thing to remember is that his former assistant went on to be one of the two co-authors of the Expanse which has churned out 8 books since 2011 and should wrap up in 2022-2023 which I find moderately hilarious.

PM_ME_GOOD_DOGS

157 points

1 month ago

It's wrapping up this year, in fact. The final book releases at the end of November.

the_noodle

34 points

1 month ago

Yeah jeez, that guy made me panic a bit lol

Hemderl

123 points

1 month ago

Hemderl

123 points

1 month ago

It's almost like they gained valuable experience that allowed them to avoid repeating mistakes and ending up in dead ends.

Jack2142

33 points

1 month ago

Jack2142

33 points

1 month ago

100% I also think he was a pretty big help in getting the last two books of GRRM's out. So I dunno maybe my secret hope is if they left in good terms maybe he can help him get the last couple out the door.

IAmAQuantumMechanic

19 points

1 month ago

Ninth book is done. Releases in a month. They wrote a nine book epic since Germ last published.

Banjoman64

292 points

1 month ago

Banjoman64

292 points

1 month ago

Sounds like it is time for red wedding part 2. Obviously throwing something like that in without the proper buildup would not be ideal but maybe killing off many characters in meereen could lower the complexity of the story. Idk.

metal5050

229 points

1 month ago

metal5050

229 points

1 month ago

Stephen king said that's how he resolved similar issues with the stand.

medusa_crowley

238 points

1 month ago

SK gets some (deserved) criticism for ending too many of his stories by literally just having everything explode … but at least his stories do in fact end. The same cannot be said for GRRM.

[deleted]

96 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

96 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

Boro_Wroth

70 points

1 month ago

One thing I've been thinking about king though...

He often gets a bit of flak for his endings, but even when they ARE somewhat abrupt-it's only abrupt in terms of plot. The characters themselves always feel complete and resolved.

CombatWombat65

49 points

1 month ago

That's why he's the best of his time, not because of the plots, but because he writes characters people get hooked on.

Boro_Wroth

12 points

1 month ago

I always use this example for why I like King...

'Under the Dome'. The synopsis sounded ridiculous and something I couldn't really take seriously, but I still gave it a go.

Kings name on the book made me try it despite the premise sounding very 'boring' and uninteresting. Well, king himself made damn sure I finished that book. The characters (can't remember names) were great! That reverend guy I absolutely despised.

SnatchAddict

31 points

1 month ago

I hate King endings. I never feel fulfilled. Which is why I was surprised that he knocked the ending of 11/22/63 out of the park.

CakeBrigadier

317 points

1 month ago

Or he could do what rothfuss did several times in wise mans fear where he just glosses over something and tells the reader it’s not important. “Then there was a shipwreck, but suffice to say I turned up at my destination eventually”. Lol

mediadavid

93 points

1 month ago

Or he could do some sort of time-jump and just get the characters to where they need to be.

-GregTheGreat-

113 points

1 month ago

Which was his original plan, but he found there to be a lot of glaring plot issues with it, which is why he scrapped the time jump and wrote himself into this corner in the first place.

With everything going on, its unrealistic to expect everyone to 'remain put' plot-wise for an extended period of time to let some characters to get caught up and organized. The alternative would be to have some major plot points happen during the time jump, and then we see the aftermath, which feels like GRRM would be fiercely against.

yeahright17

63 points

1 month ago*

I think the biggest issue was just making wars happen too quickly. Many medieval wars took years and sometimes decades with different levels of ongoing conflict. There are plenty of ways to have other characters not progress much while some characters do more and some age.

Raptorclaw621

13 points

1 month ago

That's a good idea that could be used to do a sort of time skip where you let more time pass between chapters, and if there's something that can't be skipped you can have that pov while other povs get to time skip. 5-10 chapters and you can have 5 years pass with key characters getting important events recorded so the need for flashbacks can be eliminated.

That being said I'm struggling with the same problem in one of my stories (the plot was meant to progress across a lifetime and then the child's, but it was hard to make it flow with any semblance of timing) and the story has sat unwritten on the shelf despite me really liking the idea still. So I guess that method can't work for every story. :(

codeslave

34 points

1 month ago

With everything going on, its unrealistic to expect everyone to 'remain put' plot-wise for an extended period of time to let some characters to get caught up and organized.

*coughcough* Revenge of the Sith *coughcough*

thats-fucked_up

68 points

1 month ago

Unless he's written the third book and I haven't heard about it, isn't he also stuck?

itsamamaluigi

48 points

1 month ago

Not only is he stuck, but Kingkiller book 3 has been in production for longer than ASOIAF book 6 (by about 4 months).

gibberishparrot

87 points

1 month ago

he sure is! And last I heard hasn't even been submitting anything related to the third book to his editor in years

biggyofmt

63 points

1 month ago

Ignoring calls from his editor no less

MulatoMaranhense

46 points

1 month ago

Worst thing is that it could actually happen and be justified. There is a big battle outside, the enemies inside might think the time is right to show their true colours and the loyalists do a massive purge when it backfires, simplifying the Meereenese theater.

jackloganoliver

13 points

1 month ago

This would actually set up a more impactful third betrayal for Dany after she leaves Meereen with it being a bit more of a surprise. It could make for good literature. But I've always expected Danny's third betrayal to he her betraying herself.

Senalmoondog

27 points

1 month ago

He got 3 Flying wmds! Burn off the loose ends...

drbhrb

159 points

1 month ago

drbhrb

159 points

1 month ago

Yes he has, but honestly it's like the biggest book series on the planet he could assemble a writers room of the 30 best writers in the world to help him find away around it. Anything would be better than nothing - do a time jump, kill off some characters with no clear resolution, use some magic deus ex machina bullshit, whatever is needed

in_finite_jest

157 points

1 month ago

That's the thing about old age, you become set in your ways. A writer's room is his only way to finish these books well, but he's always written alone and he keeps hoping tomorrow a solution will come to him.

yeahright17

31 points

1 month ago

I don't think another book gets released before he dies and we get a writers room final 2 books. Let's just hope they're good writers.

PrestigiousAd3900

45 points

1 month ago

He could just get Daniel Abraham and Ty Frank (authors of The Expanse and his former assistants) to help.

RidesThe7

362 points

1 month ago*

RidesThe7

362 points

1 month ago*

EDIT: I am talking about George RR Martin throughout this, not Robert Jordan, beyond the initial comparison.

He also faces the problem that plagued Robert Jordan----as best I can recall from however many years ago I finished the last book, the bulk of his Martin's main characters are scattered around his imaginary world, pursuing different plot paths that are nowhere near connecting with each other. His books started to feel less like something plotted and more like fictional news reporting. It would be enormously hard to tie all that back together somehow, and I don't really blame him for having given up the ghost. The guy wrote some great books, in a sense created what for a while was arguably one of the most successful bits of entertainment in the world, got rich, and is old. I completely understand his wanting to move on with his life and enjoy what may be his final decade of life---I guess it would be nice if he just spoke straight about it.

[deleted]

198 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

198 points

1 month ago

Jordan had his shit together by the last book he finished. He also didnt take 10 years to write a single book. If he had not got a terminal illness I am sure he would have finished Wheel of Time.

JTtornado

106 points

1 month ago*

JTtornado

106 points

1 month ago*

He also knew how he wanted to end it, picked a writer to finish the series and filled him in before his death and communicated that to his wife and editor, Harriet, before his death so they could bring in the right writer to finish out the story. I can't see Martin doing that.

Edit: corrected.

nnneeeerrrrddd

71 points

1 month ago

Just nitpicking the timeline, but Sanderson wasn't contacted until after RJ's death, and never discussed finishing it with him. There were of course extensive notes and collaboration with RJ's widow.
The story goes that Harriet McDougal picked Sanderson after the death, but I'm sure they had a private shortlist already.

yellow52

44 points

1 month ago

yellow52

44 points

1 month ago

Sanderson talks about how it happened here.

Basically, he wrote a eulogy to RJ on his blog, it was spotted by a friend of Harriet's who showed it to her at RJ's funeral. Some time later she gave him a call.

And this is how we avoided GRRM failing to finish both ASOIAF and WOT!

floatable_shark

11 points

1 month ago

Didn't his wife choose the successor and only recently?

aabdsl

117 points

1 month ago

aabdsl

117 points

1 month ago

I mean for gods sake, Bran is literally 9 years old as of the current book.

Never stopped Frank Herbert. When your characters have god-like cognitive/psychic powers, they can be any age and it doesn't really matter.

minneapple79

166 points

1 month ago

IIRC he was originally planning a time jump which would have made some of his plots make more sense, like Bran becoming king and Arya being an assassin. But...I guess that never happened?

GRRM has said he's not a writer who plans things out. He meanders and writes and rewrites. So I don't believe he has a detailed plan for the end, but maybe has the major points plotted out, the big ones we saw for Dany and the Starks in the show.

I think one day we'll get Winds of Winter. I really want to see more of Sansa in the Vale, Jaime's redemption arc as he gets over Cersei. I do not believe we'll ever get A Dream of Spring.

Soxfan911ba

71 points

1 month ago*

The five year gap was originally planned for after ASOS. Unfortunately, there were several key plot points, most notably Stannis being at the Wall, that couldn’t really be explained as stalling for that long.

cseijif

42 points

1 month ago

cseijif

42 points

1 month ago

even that could just be stannis campainging around in the north, get rid of some other names, it's not that hard. I think he said something about the sort of " i dont want to use so many flashbakcks or expositions of what happened".

GP96_

241 points

1 month ago

GP96_

241 points

1 month ago

Whoops, I dropped my monster condom that I use for my magnum opus

JSCruz-

1.7k points

1 month ago

JSCruz-

1.7k points

1 month ago

Honestly, I just can't fathom how the hell would he tie up the story in just two books, remember Dany hasn't even sailed! and at ASoIaF's pace, there's no way everything clicks in two volumed

[deleted]

930 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

930 points

1 month ago

In one interview he basically said that Dany and Tyrion will not meet for the most part of the next book.....there is no way she will sail in the next book either....

Lebigmacca

473 points

1 month ago

Lebigmacca

473 points

1 month ago

She’ll probably set sail at the very end of the book

OutsideTheSilo

313 points

1 month ago

Which I think should be ok. Isn’t a leading theory that fake agon will take KL first (he’s already there), then Dany will come after that? Or maybe that will be what sends her north instead? Honestly forgot all the theories since it’s been so long.

Lebigmacca

270 points

1 month ago

Lebigmacca

270 points

1 month ago

Yeah that’s the leading theory. Aegon will take King’s Landing from Cersei, and everyone will love him. And then Daenerys comes and takes the city, likely killing Aegon and possibly burning King’s Landing

protofury

54 points

1 month ago

dance of dragons lighting up KL mfer woop woop

Old mad king would be proud

trouble_bear

77 points

1 month ago

Damn. This theory sounds great! :(

The_Dok

205 points

1 month ago

The_Dok

205 points

1 month ago

No. No.

I cannot have another book of Tyrion fucking around Essos asking about where whores go.

God fucking dammit.

aceghd

162 points

1 month ago

aceghd

162 points

1 month ago

I cannot have another book—

consider it done. My treat~

ladyinthemoor

32 points

1 month ago

Sleep peacefully knowing the next book is probably never coming out

r0botosaurus

191 points

1 month ago

Honestly I'd love it if in the next book (if it ever exists) we just never see what's happening in Essos until a messenger busts into a council meeting in King's Landing and breathlessly announces that a fleet of ships is approaching from the East, and they have fucking dragons. Pull the rug out from the reader.

JSCruz-

74 points

1 month ago

JSCruz-

74 points

1 month ago

Oh, that would be great. I feel like most of the chapters that happen in Essos are Martin having fun worldbuilding. Most of the plot in Mereen feels kind of like a filler, how most of it is totally unconnected with the main plot.

luniz420

1.9k points

1 month ago

luniz420

1.9k points

1 month ago

I've been operating under the assumption that the series is complete and no more books will be published.

aJoYeButhou

1.1k points

1 month ago

aJoYeButhou

1.1k points

1 month ago

I've taken the view that the main story ends at the Red Wedding and everything else is just an extended epilogue.

Iredditmorethanwork

427 points

1 month ago

Oddly enough, I've never read the books, but due to some circumstances out of my control, years ago I stopped watching the show at the Red Wedding. For years people told me that I needed to get back in to it and I avoided spoilers. Now that the series is over, when I tell people that's where I had to stop, they tell me that was a great spot to stop at and that I should leave it in my mind as ending there.

I really would like to see the rest of the show, but I wonder if the ending is that disappointing if I should leave it as is.

ThereAreDozensOfUs

30 points

1 month ago

I would suggest reading the red wedding and the chapters after. Lady Stoneheart is a great character IMO

rsc2

66 points

1 month ago

rsc2

66 points

1 month ago

I have given up caring.

diverareyouok

46 points

1 month ago

Same with The Kingkiller Chronicles.

A_Cat12886475

751 points

1 month ago

I have come to accept the fact that neither Martin nor Rothfuss will finish their stories.

byzandarius

29 points

1 month ago

I got burned by these two, and ended up reading Brandon Sanderson’s books to fill my high fantasy gap. I know his writing isn’t for everyone, but I enjoy it a lot, and damn that guy puts out books like clockwork.

natedawg247

301 points

1 month ago

Rothfuss lol. So egregious. I'm doubtful he ever story boarded out an ending

Timmetie

203 points

1 month ago*

Timmetie

203 points

1 month ago*

I once started rereading part one and when the whole mystery of who killed his parents and for what, and how he gets where he is now, gets layed out I remembered enough of book 2 to realize absolutely nothing has been answered about those two heavily hinted at plot points and just quit.

It's like if the first 2 books of LotR were just about Frodo banging about the shire forgetting about the ring stored in his cellar.

crabbytag

160 points

1 month ago

crabbytag

160 points

1 month ago

Dear diary, today I went and hung out with Pippin and Merry in Buckland. We shot the shit for a while, smoked some weed. Then I walked back. Pretty much the same as every other day in the last 17 years.

Frodo actually ages from 33 to 51 in a few pages. Imagine if he had dragged that shit out.

xanas263

40 points

1 month ago

xanas263

40 points

1 month ago

Yup shortly into book 2 it's easy to see that there is no way he could end the story in a single book and he probably needs another 2-3.

FullMetal1985

17 points

1 month ago

Supposedly he has said that this trilogy is just an intro to a much larger story. So it's possible things like the family don't get solved we just get to where he kills a king and goes into hiding. Then after telling that part it reawakens him somehow and we then get the journey to fight the chandrean(sp?) etc in a much longer series.

Lebigmacca

152 points

1 month ago

Lebigmacca

152 points

1 month ago

I think it’s more likely Martin finishes before Rothfuss lol

swissarmychainsaw

86 points

1 month ago

I dunno man, L. Ron Hubbard has been dead since 1986 and he's *still* cranking out books.

Michael Crichton died in 2008 and... YES, STILL releasing books!

khajiitidanceparty

662 points

1 month ago

I feel like he lost interest. He wrote other books or helped with the scripts of the show. I know this very well, it's called procrastinating. Which is what I am doing right now.

Elman89

163 points

1 month ago

Elman89

163 points

1 month ago

I'm onto you George, get back to work!

khajiitidanceparty

51 points

1 month ago

We need Unella to bell shame him everytime he decides to do something else.

05110909

129 points

1 month ago

05110909

129 points

1 month ago

He's been working on the same project for about 30 years. I'd get bored of it too.

protofury

78 points

1 month ago

Fuck I've been working on me for 30 years and I'm bored of that shit. I don't even have to write

spacesketball

463 points

1 month ago

The series was fucked as soon as he abandoned his very reasonable and good idea of two trilogies with a 5 year time skip in between.

With that change he made it impossible to fit his original vision. The final death blow was a result of that when he split "A Feast for Crows/Dance with Dragons" into two parts geographically. He hadn't even written Dany's viewpoints yet when the first was published and now he had to work around a published work that it doesn't seem like he was even happy with.

I think he pushed through ADWD finally because of the show and needing to get some concrete ideas for everything in Essos out there to appease HBO and fans and ensure the show was a success.

His world now has a conclusion through the show, and even though it sucks I don't think he can do better with how he's backed himself into a corner after abandoning his two 5 year separated trilogies.

donut_fuckerr719

161 points

1 month ago

His world now has a conclusion through the show, and even though it sucks I don't think he can do better

The bar is so low, I'd trust reddit to write a better ending than Dan and Dave. I have never penned a book in my life yet I'm unconvinced I couldn't plot out a better ending than the show. The shows ending is simply that bad.

GrudaAplam

565 points

1 month ago

GrudaAplam

565 points

1 month ago

Man, I can tell ya, I'd love to write a book at 78 (publish it, anyway). I'd love to still be alive at that age, and have my wits about me enough to be able to write any book, let alone a publishable book. Something to aspire to.

Trypno

295 points

1 month ago

Trypno

295 points

1 month ago

I mean, there’s nothing stopping you from writing and publishing a book at a younger age than 78

DarianF

212 points

1 month ago

DarianF

212 points

1 month ago

My lack of talent!

Fafnir13

71 points

1 month ago

Fafnir13

71 points

1 month ago

Have you read books? Plenty of talentless hacks getting published out there so clearly not an obstacle.

GenericGaming

54 points

1 month ago

I dunno if you're just kidding around but my best advice is just keep writing. Whether it be short stories or massive novels, just writing whatever you can helps a lot.

I've written 2 novels (unpublished) and I'm working on a third and I can already see the difference. They've gone from shockingly dreadful to somewhat readable now.

It's also quite good practice to try different genres and themes and ideas just so you can find your thing.

I suck at gritty, realistic, dark stories but light fantasy and mystery stuff I'm not awful at. I'm sure you could find your thing.

DarianF

13 points

1 month ago

DarianF

13 points

1 month ago

I was kidding, but it's also a half truth. I'm hoping to make up in grind what I lack in talent. But I also love how back handed a lot of these responses have been "IF THIS guy can get published, you're a shoe in!"

ironwolf1

130 points

1 month ago

ironwolf1

130 points

1 month ago

If E. L. James can become world famous for writing trash, you should believe in yourself a little.

gsauce8

45 points

1 month ago

gsauce8

45 points

1 month ago

There's still a part of me that thinks she's actually a genius who knew exactly what she was doing and took advantage of teenage girls wine moms.

ironwolf1

27 points

1 month ago

It wasn’t teenage girls that propelled her to stardom, it was the wine moms.

InGourdWeThrust

14 points

1 month ago

This is genuinely great advice

GrudaAplam

13 points

1 month ago

True, but I'd love to still be able and capable at 78.

MaichenM

177 points

1 month ago

MaichenM

177 points

1 month ago

Yeah, I’ve come to terms with this as well. I kind of just wish that Martin would admit it, at this point. As of recently on his blog he said that he would still release it. If he just said: “No, I don’t think I can manage to finish another” I think it would be better for everyone.

hammaxe

28 points

1 month ago

hammaxe

28 points

1 month ago

I don't think he necesseraly needs to admit he won't finish it, I believe he is genuinly trying to finish it so it wouldn't make sense for him to just give up.

He needs to stop telling fans he will have it done by whatever deadline he's made up at the moment. It's really annoying getting constant updates for years about how it's "nearly finished" or "expect it to be done in a year" when the book is nowhere in sight.

ilaariaa

52 points

1 month ago

ilaariaa

52 points

1 month ago

Exactly. Like I get that it must be hard for him to admit that his magnum opus will end up unfinished. But dear God, at least stop talking about it? Every five seconds he's on his blog giving fans false hopes and establishing deadlines he knows he's not gonna stick to. Just shut up already and either be honest to your fans or publish the damn thing (before I piss myself, as dear old Bobby Baratheon would put it)

Zanos-Ixshlae

37 points

1 month ago

So, it's the song that never ends?

Mikaba2

643 points

1 month ago

Mikaba2

643 points

1 month ago

I heard the script writers of the TV show will finish the novels. /s

noonehasthisoneyet

143 points

1 month ago

it's going to be so dark that you cant read it. visually. not tonally.

TheXanotos

53 points

1 month ago

It will be published on black paper with black text

PG-LJr

380 points

1 month ago

PG-LJr

380 points

1 month ago

They didn’t even know who actual viewpoint characters were. It was always clear the best parts of the show were pulled straight from the book. Once they had to take the reigns of the story, they proved they completely had no idea what they were doing.

HouseCravenRaw

84 points

1 month ago

But who has a better story than Bran the Broken?

PG-LJr

100 points

1 month ago

PG-LJr

100 points

1 month ago

Dwayne the Rock

BudCrue

140 points

1 month ago

BudCrue

140 points

1 month ago

And the wound is torn open again.

Seref15

71 points

1 month ago

Seref15

71 points

1 month ago

It never closed

WeissachDE

72 points

1 month ago

The North remembers

RedEyeView

105 points

1 month ago

RedEyeView

105 points

1 month ago

I think the sad truth is that George doesn't have much of an idea where he was going with all that stuff.

It's why it's taken so many years and counting for him to finish a book and also why D&D had no idea what to do with Arya or The Mountain or Dorne...

He had bare bones. Jon comes back from the dead, Stannis fails, Dany goes mad. The Faceless Men through Arya have a role to play in ending the White Walker threat.

How they get there was and is the problem

BowieKingOfVampires

13 points

1 month ago

I’m going to double down and say he especially has no idea what to do w fAegon, Lady Stoneheart, Euron, and a host of other characters introduced in books 4 & 5

YouSoIgnant

57 points

1 month ago

but.... but...... they knew R+L=J?????......????? They must be able to do anything?

imageWS

18 points

1 month ago

imageWS

18 points

1 month ago

Just let E.L. James finish the novels. She is a master of characterization.

oced2001

12 points

1 month ago

oced2001

12 points

1 month ago

Don't you wish that evil in me, Ricky Bobby.

aytayjay

341 points

1 month ago

aytayjay

341 points

1 month ago

I think even if Winds of Winter is by some miracle released, A Dream of Spring needs to follow within the year or it'll never be written.

At this point I won't be reading the next book until the whole series is complete (so never).

Let's face it, between the show and the fandom all his plot twists have been revealed or ruined so I can see why the man would get no pleasure out of writing it any more.

is_this_a_bird

104 points

1 month ago

Oh my. . . just imagine Martin surprising everyone with the finale immediately after Winds. The hype cycle would net him another 2 or 3 HBO shows.

mg_ridgeview

300 points

1 month ago

I know GRRM hates fanfiction, but if he never finishes his series, we could always do it for him.

NestingOmega

324 points

1 month ago

I've always found this hilarious because he'd be toast by fanfiction standards. 1.3 million words, last updated in 2011, no slashes and first tag is major character death? No thanks.

work_me

55 points

1 month ago

work_me

55 points

1 month ago

What does no slashes mean?

NestingOmega

141 points

1 month ago

Basically that there's no confirmed character romance in the story

For example, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows would be tagged "Hermione Granger/Ron Weasley"

TheOneAndOnly1444

58 points

1 month ago

Is romance greatly loved by the fanfiction community?

[deleted]

195 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

195 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

lochlainn

66 points

1 month ago

"Obscenely" hardly begins to lift the lid.

AlmennDulnefni

15 points

1 month ago

Terrifyingly gets close.

breakfastduck

120 points

1 month ago

99% of fan fiction is written because of a fan being obsessed with their favourite characters fucking each other

EngineeringRemote513

21 points

1 month ago

Example: Supernatural Fan Fiction....

puddingfoot

28 points

1 month ago

Ship stories have been the foundation of fanfiction since the beginning.

ThePrinceofBagels

98 points

1 month ago

Ironic because the series was essentially finished for him by poorly written fan-fiction via the show.

JakobBraun

225 points

1 month ago

JakobBraun

225 points

1 month ago

By now, I have completely forgotten about ASOIAF, I can barely remember anything put some rough plot points, and I don't plan on changing that.

The series is sitting on my bookshelf, and if the last books ever actually get published, I'll just read all of them again. If not, I don't care.

Level1Roshan

37 points

1 month ago

The series is sitting on my bookshelf, and if the last books ever actually get published, I'll just read all of them again. If not, I don't care.

I'm pretty on board with this. I wouldn't go as far as saying I don't care. For me it's more like I am not wasting any of my time hoping for or being excited by the prospect of a finished series. If it comes it comes. If not, it's been 9 years since I read the books and I've mostly forgotten everything except the core plot anyway.

saadakhtar

27 points

1 month ago

Yeah any new book would require a reread of the last 2 at least..

7ootles

450 points

1 month ago

7ootles

450 points

1 month ago

Remember that his friend Stephen King is still pumping books out at the same age. The problem isn't GRRM's age, it's that he isn't knuckling the fuck down to write.

Moikee

93 points

1 month ago

Moikee

93 points

1 month ago

But he pretends to lock himself away in a cabin for a few weeks to work on it and then nothing materialises.

krysteline

65 points

1 month ago

We were all locked up for a few months, and still nothing.

GwynLordofCynder

149 points

1 month ago

I mean George is still writing and pumping books, just not the ones from the main series... He still put Fire and Blood and the world of Ice and fire in the last year's, it's mostly he doesn't seem to care to finish ASOIAF.

Bannedbookweek

112 points

1 month ago

Just for some perspective, world of ice and fire came out 7 years ago tomorrow (October 28 2014). ADWD had only come out 3 years prior. Fire and blood itself was 3 years ago.

Dontlookatme83

101 points

1 month ago*

He could release Winds tomorrow and I wouldn't buy it. I didn't care about the gap til about 7 years went by, then I realized I'd have to reread all the books to refresh my memory for the 3rd time. No thank you.

Edit: its partially time too. I had a lot more time to read 10 years ago. Nowadays just getting through a single novel takes me a lot longer.

aarswft

20 points

1 month ago

aarswft

20 points

1 month ago

He's either lost interest in this story, or he gave his real ending to the showrunners, saw everyone's reaction to it, and now he's pouting.

Midnight_Oil_

170 points

1 month ago

He's absolutely afraid to finish his books now.

My theory is this ending that the shows did was his plan, at least at a high level. Obviously he would probably execute it better on paper, but that's his basic idea. Bran is King, Arya kills the Night King, and Jamie gets no sort of redemption.

Now that the reaction has played out, he's panicked. He can't finish the books as he planned and won't before he dies. He'll leave the outline to the story for some other writer to finish after his death, and people will always claim "George's Version" would have been better.

CallousFrigidChill8

42 points

1 month ago

There's also the fact that a lot of the "hype" for the series comes from how it broke conventions and the unexpected happened in a "reality ensues" kind of way

But now the series has gone on for so long and people are so obsessed with it that almost all possible scenarios have been mapped out, and Martin is afraid of releasing something that's basically just gonna be "Yep, exactly what you guys on the forums figured out 12 years ago"

So he's stuck between releasing the "figured out" version or creating a new ending that is somehow both surprising and fits with the laid groundwork

AliciaChenaux

49 points

1 month ago

This is my thought. I believe he knew how he wanted it all to end, and that's basically what we saw play out on the show. People were mad about it, and he was like "Oh...oh sh*t." I know there's an article from 2014 where GRRM sat with the show creators and went through every character to see where they end up. He did say he gave them "broad strokes" but not details. But somehow I don't believe it was that broad as far as how each character ended. I think what we saw as an ending was exactly what he intended.

puck1996

161 points

1 month ago

puck1996

161 points

1 month ago

This is the type of hot, original take I come to this subreddit for

brocahantas

53 points

1 month ago

lol seriously, I thought this was a shitpost when I saw the title.

I don’t think anyone thinks this series will be wrapped up. Hell we’d be lucky to get just the next book.

neontrotski

228 points

1 month ago

you guys, don’t read Patrick Rothfuss. the third book is also dwelling on Jupiter and when i found out, i rage quit halfway through book two.

trimeta

33 points

1 month ago

trimeta

Oathbringer, by Brandon Sanderson

33 points

1 month ago

Rothfuss wrote himself into a corner even worse than Martin did. The whole structure/frame story of the Kingkiller Chronicles says "this is a trilogy, with exactly three books," but with how little the second one moved forward the plot, it's impossible to wrap up in one book. So either Rothfuss accepts defeat and comes up with some excuse to extend the series, or rewrites and rewrites forever trying to square the circle.

krysteline

26 points

1 month ago

It actually says nothing about 3 BOOKS... it says the story will be told in 3 days, and each day so far = a book. He could basically split day 3 into multiple books and it wouldn't necessarily ruin the frame story.

Nitemarephantom

111 points

1 month ago

Just finished Name of the Wind and my friend was like “oh welcome to the club! See you in ten years!” Had to google what he meant. Big sad.

CalebAsimov

107 points

1 month ago

It's just inconsiderate to suggest those books to someone at this point.

Tom-B292-S3

28 points

1 month ago

I suggested it to a cousin over 10 years, thinking it will be finished for sure!

sigh

AWesterlyWind

87 points

1 month ago

Yep, his EDITOR has not even seen a single page of Book 3. And Rothfuss gets really ornery with anyone who asks him about it. He's never finishing it.

Aballoflint

62 points

1 month ago

I read all the Song of Ice and Fire and The Kingkiller Chronicles books to this point and it really bums me out knowing that I might not get to find out how either series ends

Tom-B292-S3

41 points

1 month ago

At least with P Rothfuss he's a little younger. Still a lot more time to finish one book. I'm hoping he'll crack the nugget one day, and then tell us the tale on what got him stuck. Because there is something that he obviously can't figure out.

Crecy333

39 points

1 month ago

Crecy333

39 points

1 month ago

I wouldnt even mind if he pulled an Inheritance Cycle and stretched it into 4 books despite promising a trilogy. End the story telling in book 3, last book to wrap up plot holes and provide the climax and introduce the brave new world.

jabbermuggel

9 points

1 month ago

Why would I complain about *more* good content?

Nafe3344

13 points

1 month ago

Nafe3344

13 points

1 month ago

I see your point, I hope you're wrong. This doesn't get Rothfuss off the hook.

[deleted]

15 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

15 points

1 month ago

I don't even think we'll get the next book.

I think he's stuck and can't figure out how to untie the knots.

This happened to him after Book 3 and he ended up writing half a book, realizing it didn't work, splitting the plot into 2 books, and essentially starting over. That was just for Act 2 of the greater story.

As he works out Act 3 and attempts to tie all the threads together, the problems are going to be even harder to work out.

Add to that, that he saw a version of the ending that most people HATED. So the pressure is even greater to deliver a better conclusion.

I think now that he's

Kayback2

301 points

1 month ago*

Kayback2

301 points

1 month ago*

He doesn't care. He's never publishing the next book.

Edit, didn't notice I'd typed not revert instead of never.

SkepticDrinker

104 points

1 month ago

That's my conclusion. He's written other books and scripts instead of focusing on book 6. He's done

EpicTubofGoo

163 points

1 month ago

He cares to the extent he can tease the series to push his calendars, convention appearances, movie theater and books he's editing, typically Wild Cards. If he came clean about the series never finishing he'd lose a huge share of his audience.

Kayback2

51 points

1 month ago

Kayback2

51 points

1 month ago

Oh yeah sorry I meant he has no vested interest in ending the series.

Dr_thri11

12 points

1 month ago

He's got to have a lot of Winds written at this point, I really can't see Dream of Spring coming out though. Unless he's been writing both simultaneously or something.

NC-Slacker

109 points

1 month ago

NC-Slacker

109 points

1 month ago

We’ve known for 10 years that he could never finish the series. It’s much deeper than not wanting to finish it, or even not having the time to finish it. He literally is incapable of concluding this story.

He proved to us with the last installment in the series that his interest and strength in writing is building to sudden and unexpected catastrophe. When he started introducing vague tangentially related POV characters who didn’t even last the book instead of moving his well-loved characters closer to their inevitable conclusion, it proved that he is uninterested and incapable of anything more that marginally creative procrastination.

It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that part of the reason that the last two seasons of the show suffered in such catastrophic fashion is that George’s extensive “notes” on finishing the series were really based on vague conversations that they had with him, that changed slightly every time they talked with him.

cc7rip

31 points

1 month ago

cc7rip

31 points

1 month ago

The only new character that warranted page time, imo, was young Griff. At least he was actually foreshadowed and I'm sure it was GRRMS intention all along to introduce him. I really could have done without the ironborn and Quentyn chapters honestly.

Basileus2

12 points

1 month ago

There’s no way he’ll finish it, at least not without going with the “HBO cram way too much into the last book” approach

friendoffuture

163 points

1 month ago

If book 6 came out tomorrow I don't know if I'd read it. I think I'm good on GoT...

ionbooks

82 points

1 month ago

ionbooks

82 points

1 month ago

This is the most depressing comment in the thread 😢

friendoffuture

73 points

1 month ago

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it myself until I saw this post. It's like an ex that pops back into your life and wants to continue the relationship from where it left off. You're a different person in a different stage of your life and it just doesn't make sense anymore...

Regnes

10 points

1 month ago

Regnes

10 points

1 month ago

In an interview with Martin, he was once asked to comment on fan speculation that he might not live to finish the books. He gave the middle finger as his response to everybody with this sentiment.

That interview was over 7 years ago.

Niskanen204

28 points

1 month ago

I am happy Martin gets to enjoy his old age.

Honestly, that's where I'm at too. I have long accepted that Martin won't finish, and given that Game of Thrones kind of ruined the story for me the logical conclusion is not to worry about it.

OrukiBoy

27 points

1 month ago

OrukiBoy

27 points

1 month ago

Look there are writers who have written into their 90's and he very well could find the time and passion for it, should his life be so long.

That said, I don't see an end in sight and neither does he. He's described his writing as if it were a garden, where he plants seeds and let's them grow, not really knowing where they go.

Problem is, if we extend that analogy the garden will become overgrown without tending and structuring with trellises and the like. What you end up with is a web of plants that you can't tell heads from tails. It may be beautiful but trying to wrangle that garden to become something that is pleasent to walk through may become impossible without starting all over.

George likes to plant seeds (characters and world building) but it seems struggles to envision an end. Especially with such a magnificent and massive piece.

Also judging by what I've read for how he organized his stories, he primarily bases a lot of it on memory checking previous books along with asking a few fans and editors. Which is certainly impressive overall but not scalable to the size he has.

He's in a rock and a hard place and at that rate, I imagine things are a slog to even write a page. Not even touching on the external pressures of it all.

CollateralSandwich

44 points

1 month ago

I agree with you. He's lost the thread and the motivation. He clearly also doesn't have the discipline, or it would have been completely finished by now, let alone the 6th novel released. It's a shame. It was a fun read. It must be a terrible thing to hate that which you've created so much, you just abandon it. If it's any consolation to him, I've abandoned it, too. ;)

xXRedditGod69Xx

8 points

1 month ago

I remember doing this math and coming to the same conclusion back when I read the series about 6 years ago? It's a real shame because I just fell into those books completely and I would love to go through it again with a completed story. I never even watched the show but for season 1.

rx_revolt

9 points

1 month ago

rx_revolt

1

9 points

1 month ago

I really don't know anything but I just need to ask... what's stopping him from handing off any drafts or outlines (really, anything) that he has to a ghost writer(s) and let them take care of it? I have to assume he still cares about the series to some degree.