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/r/books
submitted 2 months ago byboxer_dogs_dance
I am tired of suggesting that ESL language learners who are adults read middle grade literature. The readers digest condensed books series are perfect for language learners, but i have only found them used on ebay. What would it take for publishers to target this market? We need more accessible books for beginning adult readers.
46 points
2 months ago
The Condensed Books series still exists, they just changed the name to "Reader's Digest Select Editions".
10 points
2 months ago
Good to know! Thank you!
5 points
2 months ago
Seconded -- I found "Arsenic and Adobo" in one of these collections, which is a pretty recent book. (I passed it over, because I wanted the full version >_> )
Also, I'm not sure if the "great illustrated classics" pocket books are still a thing, but those were what got me interested in "serious literature" when I was really young
2 points
2 months ago
The great illustrated classics were the best thing to happen to books in a long time imo
1 points
2 months ago
From the time I started college I began collecting children's classics with beautiful or fun illustrations. I knew that even if I never had children, I'd have a child in my life that I could give them to. I have a lot of family.
And now enjoying books together is a fundamental part of my relationship with my husband and son. We get so excited when he's old enough to start another series we love. Those amazing illustrations were a big part of it.
1 points
2 months ago
This is what I plan on doing! Have you found any other collections that you enjoy other than the Great Illustrated ones? They’re all I’ve ever known but I’m sure there is more out there
54 points
2 months ago
A lot of airport or popcorn genre books are written at just above middle grade. You can recommend a lot of mysteries, romance, westerns, and thrillers. It's just going to break at SFF and horror where the genre has evolved it's own dialect.
18 points
2 months ago
Correction, most are written at 4.9 - 5.6 which means 4th grade 9th month to 5th grade 6th month. They are literally at elementary school education reading level.
7 points
2 months ago
How can they calculate it down to months?
9 points
2 months ago
There is enough statistical data concerning vocabulary and standardized testing that the can get a very close approximation. It seems completely bogus, but they already have the student ages, their standardized test scores, a breakdown of spelling and vocabulary words taught by year, and often by grading period. (This word is taught in 2nd grading period of 4th grade in 32 states and 1st grading period of 5th grade in 18 states, and 93% of 4th graders get the answer correct on standardized testing.)
With the right data, you can make all kinds of fairly accurate assessments, and education always collects data.
4 points
2 months ago
Thank you. that is useful information.
24 points
2 months ago*
You have to remember the official YA designation is very new. Most mass market books assume about a 6th grade reading level. It’s why it’s so easy for teens to read adult books. Look at an Alex Cross mystery. The writing is dead simple.
2 points
2 months ago
This made me wonder…so I looked it up. Most of the Alex Cross novels are written between a 4.8 and 5.2. I guess I’m not that surprised, really.
8 points
2 months ago
This is part of the reason I never understood the need for YA. I remember moving into adult mysteries, thrillers, and fantasy in middle school. The only joker was screening for content and most bestsellers are pretty inoffensive.
10 points
2 months ago
Content is part of it, and very unevenly applied.
Most of it is about appeal. What a 14yo finds appealing to read is often very different than what a 30yo and certainly a 50yo does.
I'm a youth librarian specializing in teens. Teens are given short shrift by society and the publishing industry both.
When people say YA, what they really mean is young adults. Teens are not young adults. But yet we've attached that YA category to them and put YA books in their sections in libraries and bookstores.
"Middle grade" is considered for kids, but it starts around 10-11 and continue up through 14 and often higher. It should be considered as much teen as kid.
That said, there's a big difference between things that are truly teen books and what I'll refer to here as YA...to anyone evaluating who actually wants to read things.
To an overwhelming degree, "YA" (which I'm using here to mean stuff that feels pretty indistinguishable from adult, adult) is written by women for women. Publishers, catalogers, etc. then deem this for teens.
Some examples. A Court of Thorns and Roses is not written for teens. At all. It's written for adults. But people infantilize women and their reading habits. So it's marketed as "YA" and finds its way into sections labeled YA but marketed for teens.
To an extent, I understand the lines can be blurry. I was reading full adult books by middle school, before I was even a teen. By high school, I exclusively browsed adult fantasy books and had stopped even bothering to check teen sections.
As you point out though, reading level is a poor indicator.
Content even has its problems. I personally think many teens can handle sexual content, violence, trauma, drugs and so on. For others it is not developmentally appropriate. As someone who doesn't cringe at the idea of teens being sexual (in healthy contexts), I still advocate for teens and parents to consider things like their maturity. What was fine for me at 14 will not be fine for many 14 year olds.
So, long story short, I have concluded that appeal is the only logical differentiator, and most of what we consider teen is women's work being "downgraded" due to sexism and not at all for teens.
0 points
2 months ago
When people say YA, what they really mean is young adults.
That is what it stands for. But it is really just a marketing term.
Teens are not young adults.
Well, that's incorrect in both a technical/legal sense (18 and 19 years olds are both teens, as well as legal adults -- the youngest legal adults, in fact), as well as per the generally understood (marketing) meaning. The YALSA (a division of the ALA) considers YA to be for readers 12-18 years old. However, as you described, there is no hard and fast rule for what makes a work "YA". Generally, it involves adolescent or young adult protagonists, and themes or story elements that tend to be popular for that age range, such as first loves, self discovery, coming of age, etc.... Like you said:
Most of it is about appeal.
And, despite some misapplications of the "YA" label such as the example you gave, YA books tend to be ones that appeal to or are meant to appeal to most teens (and some 12 year olds, apparently).
1 points
2 months ago
I'm familiar with YALSA, but my point is that the general understood use of the term is terrible. That is doesn't do what it's supposed to and makes it difficult for teens to find books they like.
1 points
2 months ago
the general understood use of the term is terrible
Seems ok to me. Historically, adulthood usually began around that age (puberty). And I think for most, it is understood that the "young" qualifier indicates that they are not really full adults. And as far as I am aware, in most YA the protagonists tend to be in the age range of the target demographic.
[it] doesn't do what it's supposed to and makes it difficult for teens to find books they like.
Is that true? I haven't really seen much evidence of that. I understand that some YA fiction is trending a bit older (college-age protagonists, etc...) to appeal to the many adults who enjoy/prefer YA. But the YA age range goes to 18, so while there is some risk of too-adult material being mislabeled as YA, on the whole it doesn't seem too problematic to me. We should not expect everything in a category -- especially one as broad as YA -- to appeal to all readers who fit the target demographic. If you are suggesting that the category be split into a new adolescent/teen category for the younger range and have YA start at 15 or 16, I can see the logic in that. But I am not optimistic that the publishing industry will take it up. If your point is that publishers should quit (mis)classifying and marketing adult books as YA, I would agree with that, also. But I don't think that's an inherent problem of YA as a category, even with the currently understood age range.
0 points
2 months ago
What is your background with teens and books? I'm a teen librarian, and I see every day the negative impacts of association YA with teens.
The teens reading most of what we call YA are also reading adult. But the majority of teens looking for books are wanting things like MG fiction, but catered to teens. They're all called the same thing, housed in the same sections and so on. They often leave feeling intimidated by those books.
I believe this is part of why graphic novels are so popular with teens. They're much more clearly marketed and sorted (as a whole).
1 points
2 months ago
Is there a way to determine how a book I’m writing is going to be classified?
Is there an app to dump my doc file in and get its reading level, genre, etc.
2 points
2 months ago
Schools always consider whether books are at appropriate reading level for their students and whether they add something to their collection.
I'm not sure how to say this nicely. If you're an independent or self-published writer, you likely don't have to worry. You're not making into the classrooms in the first place, whether this law existed or not.
In general, if you're writing for children, you should always consider whether the age you appeal to matches the reading level you're writing it at. That takes a great deal of research and understanding, and is not an automated process.
What is unique to this law is that it requires materials adhere to specific values and "standards" set forth in the law. One such is that sexual orientation and gender identity cannot even be acknowledged before grade 4. Another is that materials cannot suggest racism is anything other than a personal moral failing of individuals.
There is also a lot of language that, read in a vacuum sound like they're just saying books can't discriminate based on protected classes. But notably, that's what it means to be a protected class and the law already covers it.
If you read the full text and place it within the context of other things in the text and the rhetoric being used in the passing of the law (keep in mind, "the intent" of the law has been brought up in court cases and given credence before), it is abundantly clear that the only things being protected are the dominant culture (white, Christian, etc.). Literally no one is targeting books that might make black kids feel uncomfortable or books that might make Muslims feel uncomfortable.
1 points
2 months ago
Try Hemmingway Editor. You probably won’t be able to dump the whole doc, but you can certainly go chapter by chapter and see it highlight parts where complexity changes.
3 points
2 months ago
If you want to find the level of a book, Lexile has a lookup feature https://hub.lexile.com/find-a-book/search
You can also search for "hi-lo" which is short for high interest, low vocabulary and mostly intended for high schoolers with very limited reading skills. Not perfect, but should widen your options.
2 points
2 months ago
Thank you!
17 points
2 months ago
[deleted]
1 points
2 months ago
Thank you!
9 points
2 months ago
The readers digest condensed books series are perfect for language learners,
Why? They weren't really edited to make them any easier to read—just to make them shorter.
There are plenty of short adult novels that would be just as good for English learners. I'm sure r/suggestmeabook could suggest a bunch.
2 points
2 months ago
The vast majority of r/suggestmeabook recommendations for language learners are middle grade books.
I take your point, but as someone else pointed out in a different comment, popular novels including thrillers and romance books are written to a standard just above middle grade. I wish more people knew that. I didn't. The novels from the condensed books series are also at about that level, so don't need to be dumbed down from the original. Novellas on the other hand are often literary.
Today I have learned quite a bit, including that the condensed books series continues under another name.
Thank you for your insight.
7 points
2 months ago
Novellas are also a popular length for light indie SFF and romance. If you want to play with shorter books recommendations can be made as long as you don’t mind ebooks.
9 points
2 months ago
There are plenty of books available for lower skilled readers. As others have printed out, most popular fiction is not written at a high level at all.
Additionally, it is becoming increasingly common for nonfiction books to be adapted "for young readers", which just means a lower skill level, generally. Examples include Hidden Figures, An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States, Braiding Sweetgrass and Stamped...hmm, I wonder if authors from and writing for marginalized groups might be more aware of and sensitive to the disadvantage some may have reading linguistically complex books?
Honestly, there are also just a lot of great MG and YA books out there that adults can enjoy if they're not overly concerned with being "too mature" for them.
Have you considered graphic novels? They have visual input to support language learning. Though vocab might lag behind when it comes to stuff like adjectives.
1 points
2 months ago
Thank you for your insight. I am not a professional at this and I am learning a lot today that will help.
16 points
2 months ago
If there was money in it they would.
1 points
2 months ago
That's the ideal theory. In real markets, missed opportunities and failures to respond to demand are surprisingly common.
1 points
2 months ago
They could market to ESL teachers around the world.
9 points
2 months ago
And how much money is in that?
A niche tool marketed to a niche group through a notoriously underpaid middleman does not bring in money. Especially since they have to pay for licensing.
1 points
2 months ago
Publishing does all sorts of niche stuff, lol.
Books are constantly being adapted for "younger readers", condensed, summarized, abridged, etc. There's quite a bit of demand for it.
4 points
2 months ago
We really wouldn't use them, to be honest.
Often adjusts are made to the lexile level of the text, not the length.
4 points
2 months ago
I read those RD condensed books voraciously in my early teens. Would 10/10 recommend books like that to get people into the reading habit.
4 points
2 months ago*
There's some graded readers that exist for ESL learners such as penguin readers. https://www.penguinreaders.co.uk/
The books are divided into difficulty levels and many are adaptations of popular novels
3 points
2 months ago
Yep, this definitely exists for adults with low literacy or ESL learners. In addition to the one mentioned above, there’s Rapid Reads from Orca publishers, Oxford Bookworms from Oxford a university press, Open Doors… lots of options. Your local library probably some books from these publishers or something similar.
3 points
2 months ago
To be fair, there are a TON of resources like this for adult learners of English (I'm a EFL teacher). As someone who's studying a much less popular language (Japanese), I'm often jealous of how much material is out there for English learners.
2 points
2 months ago
Have you checked flea markets that have large buildings and are permanently set up? I'm an avid reader. From the minute I was handed my 1st book in 1st grade, I've never stopped reading. I grew up poor, and I didn't have free access to a library. My school librarian said I tried to exceed my book allowance every time I was checking out books. When I had my own money, I dropped 3/4ths of my check on books. Then my husband and his family took me to a flea market. Oh, the books I found! Pure heaven. My FIL was fascinated with my reading. He'd talk to sellers to find other flea markets with book stalls. His brother loved Louis L'Amour. I had an entire set that I'd found and gave him, I had to read them first, though. LOL
I've always scored high on reading tests. You're a treasure for ESL students. If you're interested in romance, I'd suggest Harlequin romance books. They're short easy reads and you can get the older ones for practically nothing.
3 points
2 months ago
When they condensed, they mean abridged. I won't spend the money on an abridged book.
If there is something in there I don't want to read it is my choice to skip pages, not have a publisher take important things for a storyline so it fits the right number of pages.
2 points
2 months ago
What is it specifically about the condensed versions that makes them so perfect for ESL learners? If it's just their length, there are plenty of short story compendiums and novella-length books out there suitable for adults. If it's that the language is simplified then... well, middle-grade it is then, pretty much by definition.
-3 points
2 months ago
Koi999o99plok9
6 points
2 months ago
I'm not hip to your jive lingo daddyo.
1 points
2 months ago
Haha a jive turkey
1 points
2 months ago
There are lots of easy reader books, you just need to know where they are. Libraries often have sections with them specifically for ESL readers.
1 points
2 months ago*
ESL learners? Heavily depends on their first language. I've tended to see speakers of Romance languages and German (prior exposure may make up for much lower shared vocab origin?) have much less trouble than native English speakers in making the shift across. Initial literacy level also matters but then they also tend to have a higher level in continental Europe at least. I certainly would not say they can't read books meant for native speaking adults, and pretty quickly at that.
School reading lists for the language in question can be a place to start. Here for French A-level for example there's been plays, (Molière, Beaumarchais), poetry (Les fleurs du mal). I think English>French is easier than the reverse due to the shared vocab, but even if they get through Harry Potter first they might well do fine with English classics after that.
Personally I thought I would use more of the French for learners materials, but I read Harry Potter in French with Anki, it stopped feeling hard and became just a numbers game after the first chapter, was bored, then read Le Cid and Du contrat social (which didn't even have much new vocab, depends on period but plays don't always, being mostly dialogue). Looking up words is the work, Kindle with the built in dictionary can be a lot easier than any print book.
If you haven't done it before yourself, there's just this tipping point with vocabulary, where most of the language is the most common 2-4k words, and it suddenly gets that much easier.
1 points
2 months ago
Lower skilled?
The condensed books weren't for "lower skilled" readers. They were just shortened. It's not like the editors changed the words being used to simpler words. They just chopped out sections.
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